CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Oscar22 on June 29, 2021, 03:53:01 PM
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Hi All,
We have a Show ocker who is now around 18 months, and who has had 2 seasons.
We are very much unsure about having her speyed due to some of the apparent (anybody know if these ACTUALLY happen or not) negatives of doing so; tendency for weight loss, change in coat (tendency to turn 'woolly'), different character/behaviour, etc.
There are evidently some health benefits (although I thnk we've missed the greatest benefits by waiting until 2 seasons) and wondered what people's opinions and experiences were?
We just love her the way she is (her coat, behaviour, etc.) but don't want to be selfish if the health benefits aren't that great. Likewise we would do it in an instant if the negatives weren't actually genuine.
Thanks in advance for responses.
Oscar22
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Izzy will be nine in a couple of weeks. She was spayed when she was just over two years old. She still has her shiny coat but I realise some do end up with woolly coats. I was advised not to have her spayed too early so that her body could mature. I was not intending for her to have pups and I wanted the health benefits that come with being spayed.
Julia
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Julia,
Many thaks for your reply, that's really helpful.
Oscar22
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Thanks for posting this Oscar22. Our vet called to remind me that Nutty needs speying. She’s 5 months old today, I was caught off guard, my garbled response was to ask what the medical benefits are. I can’t remember exactly what he said but she’d avoid a group of cancers and Pyro. I said I’d call him back.
The thought of an operation horrifies me never mind her being away from me for more an 15 mins. We are practicing time alone and 15 mins is all we’re up to yet as I’m taking it slowly.
I don’t know what her coat’s going to look like as she’s still fluffy. I’ll do a ton of reading before making a decision but the health benefits need to be enormous to allow this. I can’t get my head around her being a baby.
I’ve recently lost a dog to my ex, I know I’m overly protective with Nutty.
I also didn’t like that it sounded a little like a sales call, my vet never calls me.
John.
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I think 5 months is far too young. I have always been told to wait for the growth plates to finish before speying, which is normally after 12 months at least. Maybe your vet is a bit short of cash! 🤔
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I think 5 months is far too young. I have always been told to wait for the growth plates to finish before speying, which is normally after 12 months at least. Maybe your vet is a bit short of cash! 🤔
My thoughts exactly! I know the original question was concerning speying not castration but the principle is the same - I‘d personally be very wary of a vet recommending speying/castration without a medical reason and I never really understand the argument of cancer prevention, unless there‘s an underlying problem that makes it more likely (my dog had an undescended testicle for example which potentially posed a problem, so we did decide to have him castrated at the age of 5), we‘d all be having bits chopped off otherwise! ;)
Everyone and everydogs circumstances are different and in no way am I attempting to make an argument either for or against, its personal choice but to suggest speying a dog at 5 months just for the sake of it seems very unethical and outdated to me, so much development is still taking place and the general medical opinion these days, as far as I know, is to wait at least until after puberty.
Humphrey‘s coat most definately suffered, its become very woolly and needs a lot more attention and we also have a bit of a battle with keeping his weight under control, neither of which matter as long as he‘s healthy ofcourse but I wish I hadn‘t had to have had it done and I‘d say think about it carefully before you make the decision. :shades:
:luv:
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When I had a male GSP I belonged to a vet practice that had multiple sites. They urged me to get Max castrated at 6 months. I didn’t and instead joined another vet’s practice. A one man outfit. When I asked him about castration, he said wait and see how Max deals with his sexuality as he only operated if there was a health or behavioural problem. SO Max was not castrated. Sadly this vet retired and I had to go back to the original practice. When Max was about 6 he became ill and became very thin and was taken for a consultation. The first vet we saw there recommended castration as a way of putting weight on him >:D. Castration - a cure all for every male problem. I wonder if the male vet had also been ‘done’ ? ;) :lol2: I refused and after tests it was revealed his lose of weight was due to kidney cancer. :'(
It seems nowadays that new vets have a ‘script’ of what services to offer and when to neuter. They must stick to these to continue to bring the money in.
My two girls were spayed though after they had had two seasons. After much research I found that there are more benefits to have females neutered than males.
My solid girl’s coat got much thicker and woolier afterwards but only the black parts of my blue roan were affected.
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Thanks so much for posting your experiences. I think 5 months old is far too young and I’ve not had enough time to research whether 18 months or over 2 is beneficial to her health yet either. I’m not anti nor do I want her to have pups. I don’t have a male dog and I’ve become a Velcro Parent :lol: I’d do it in a flash if it was medically necessary, as we haven’t seen a vet since the second vaccination that’s ruled out.
The ‘phone call was very out of the blue, perhaps they are struggling or on sales targets - both scary for owners who aren’t connected to somewhere like here!
I wasn’t going to post about it as I am always asking for your help yet don’t have much to give back yet. I am ever so grateful members are always great, thank you.
Oscar22 - I hope you’ve found clear medical research to help with the difficult decision.
John.
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Thanks so much for posting your experiences. I think 5 months old is far too young and I’ve not had enough time to research whether 18 months or over 2 is beneficial to her health yet either. I’m not anti nor do I want her to have pups. I don’t have a male dog and I’ve become a Velcro Parent :lol: I’d do it in a flash if it was medically necessary, as we haven’t seen a vet since the second vaccination that’s ruled out.
The ‘phone call was very out of the blue, perhaps they are struggling or on sales targets - both scary for owners who aren’t connected to somewhere like here!
I wasn’t going to post about it as I am always asking for your help yet don’t have much to give back yet. I am ever so grateful members are always great, thank you.
Oscar22 - I hope you’ve found clear medical research to help with the difficult decision.
John.
John, - please don‘t worry about asking too many questions, - its the questions/replies that keep the discussions going, most of us have been where you are now and we all benefit from each other in some way or another. We have a saying here in Germany „ He who doesn‘t ask remains ignorant“ :005: :005: I always find it reassuring to hear other opionions! :luv:
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Thanks for posting this Oscar22. Our vet called to remind me that Nutty needs speying. She’s 5 months old today, I was caught off guard, my garbled response was to ask what the medical benefits are. I can’t remember exactly what he said but she’d avoid a group of cancers and Pyro. I said I’d call him back.
The thought of an operation horrifies me never mind her being away from me for more an 15 mins. We are practicing time alone and 15 mins is all we’re up to yet as I’m taking it slowly.
I don’t know what her coat’s going to look like as she’s still fluffy. I’ll do a ton of reading before making a decision but the health benefits need to be enormous to allow this. I can’t get my head around her being a baby.
I’ve recently lost a dog to my ex, I know I’m overly protective with Nutty.
I also didn’t like that it sounded a little like a sales call, my vet never calls me.
John.
WOW I am gobsmacked that your vet has called you with Peanut only being 5 months old
For what it’s worth, I had my first working cocker spayed about 3 months after her first season, as I didn’t want to breed from her and Ash will be the same - Ash also has a small inbolical hernia which they will deal with at the same time
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Thanks All.
From the masses of reading we've done, it appears the longer you leave it the less the health benefits actually become - it is just so difficult to get facts on the health benefits, or facts on the negative side effects of speying.
The main health benefits seem to be cancers of uterus/womb; obviously this risk is removed entirely but I don't think it is a massive problem anyway. Mammary cancer is more of a problem, but I don't believe speying makes a difference to that.
Oscar22.
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I have heard that spaying before the dog has had her first season can result in some urinary incontinence in some cases. Definitely wait until she has had one season. She is only a baby after all.
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To be clear, ours is 15 months, not less than 1. And has had 2 seasons so far, hence the need to now make a decision.
Thanks.
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When my two girls were spayed after 2 seasons, it had zero effect on their personalities :luv:
It took a while for the change of coat to become apparent ( I thought for a few years that it hadn’t affected their coats at all ) but then as previously stated, Marley (solid black) started to get woolly and whilst previously I had been able to just use a comb and rubber band , I had to resort to a comb king. Only the black parts of Stevie (blue roan) were effected.
Even though they had both been spayed, Stevie developed mammary lumps. Due to her age (11) I wouldn’t let her go through a suggested mammary strip and the lumps never got any bigger.
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Sorry to jump on board with your discussions.
We keep all of our girls entire without any problems or health issues. We have the Working Type Cockers. Varying ages from 3 years to 11.5 years, and many others before these.
I have attached a couple of articles about spaying / castration choices.
http://affinitydogtraining.co.uk/training-info/neutering/
https://www.wolftucker.co.uk/blog/neutering-your-dog-making-an-informed-decision/
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The main health benefits seem to be cancers of uterus/womb; obviously this risk is removed entirely but I don't think it is a massive problem anyway. Mammary cancer is more of a problem, but I don't believe speying makes a difference to that.
Oscar22.
My research is leading me to agree. Somewhere I’ve read the speying reduces the risk of Mammary Cancer but I don’t know by how much and I don’t have the stats for MC to start with.
What really surprised me were the mass of negative risks of speying / castration etc.
Have you come to a decision or nearing one please?
I know you need to make a decision far sooner than I, so far the risks outweigh the benefit for us. Although I will keep reading.
Thanks.
John.
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Thanks for the links TooFast.
I’m changing my vet immediately.
John.
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Your welcome. ;)
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My girl is 2 and a half, and I am deliberating over if I should spay or not, she seems to have a phantom pregnancy and then a coupe of months later we go thro it all again with her real season, i have enquired about keyhole spay which is a smaller op (2 small incisions) they take away the ovaries and leave the womb...so less of a massive op, but.......?
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I have never had a female so cannot comment other than to say I have had Ollie and my previous dogs have been to vets that seem obsessed with neutering. So much so that I have left the practice.
But phoning you John when Nutty is 5 months to me is a disgrace, and would have me suggesting to the vet had he considered the snip for himself. It also rattles me that many rescue do it mandatory. It smack's that all owners are irresponsible and can't control there dogs.
I realize that we just want what is best for our fury babies and naturally we choose to listen to our vets, Ollie's vet will have a tussle with me this week as at nearly 14 his annual booster is due - but as he has been on steroids for 7 months and the lowering of immune system effect I shall query the need - which if I declined also makes his pet insurance invalid unless the vet agrees with me and does her research.
And that is where the choice lies in research. I hope Oscar and John are able to make there own informed opinions and am sure others on COL will be able to advise.
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I have never had a female so cannot comment other than to say I have had Ollie and my previous dogs have been to vets that seem obsessed with neutering. So much so that I have left the practice.
But phoning you John when Nutty is 5 months to me is a disgrace, and would have me suggesting to the vet had he considered the snip for himself. It also rattles me that many rescue do it mandatory. It smack's that all owners are irresponsible and can't control there dogs.
I realize that we just want what is best for our fury babies and naturally we choose to listen to our vets, Ollie's vet will have a tussle with me this week as at nearly 14 his annual booster is due - but as he has been on steroids for 7 months and the lowering of immune system effect I shall query the need - which if I declined also makes his pet insurance invalid unless the vet agrees with me and does her research.
And that is where the choice lies in research. I hope Oscar and John are able to make there own informed opinions and am sure others on COL will be able to advise.
Well said Julie!! I agree with you entirely.
I remember Mari saying that in Norway, it‘s illegal for a vet to castrate/spey, without a valid reason and upon checking, I found that the same applies here in Germany. Although I‘m not actually sure what constitutes a „valid reason“ the fact that a vet can‘t perform the operation on a whim or, worse still, to boost business does at least require that owners are given an adequate explanation of pros and cons.
It took me years before I realized its actually ok to question, even argue my point with both vets and doctors and not let myself be intimidated by a white coat and a stethoscope - (its probably actually an age thing when I started to realize that most of them are younger than my own kids! :005: ) At the end if the day, we‘re their paying customers..... ;)
And don‘t even get me going on the subject of vaccinations...... :argue: :005:
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Hi, thanks JaysMum, bizzyLizzy, Ruby & Vixen. I’ve decided to not spay/spey unless there’s a good medical reason. If Nutty suffers with phantom pregnancies or other complications I’d do it but I’ve not found enough benefit to mitigate the risk.
I’m glad vaccinations have been brought up, I’m going down the route of titre testing to see what defences Nutty already has before doing any more vaccines. We don’t have a new vet yet but I’m only going to go to one that supports the titre and who will supply the necessary letter to insurers so that insurance remains valid. I’m going to ask what their policy is around neutering telesales too!
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Glad to hear John the titre testing is an idea, if you google you can find vets signed up for testing, I looked last year and the nearest to me was 30 miles away. But understand Vets for Pets does it now.
Just to mention I was told that it cant test antibodies for lepto only others.....sure someone will come up with correct advice who has gone down that route.
Jayne as for white coats - when you have been around them during your working life you soon realize they may require your respect as does anyone - but they certainly are no better than us (far from it :005:)
Have a good day folks
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Hi JaysMumAgain,
Thanks for the titre testing advice, I’m googling now as I really want to have a vet opposed to waiting until we may need one. I think i found out about the testing from your research somewhere on the forum so another big thanks for that. I’m not anti vaccinations but I’m concerned about the volume of chemicals that we could easily avoid giving our pets. I’m going to find your old posts but I’d like to ask you if you went down the titre route or plan to. Or does anybody else please?
Thanks.
John.
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Hi John
I didn't go down the route, Ollie is 14 this year and it was about about 2 years back that I saw titre testing on here. That was when I looked around and nearest to me was 30 miles away. So Ollie has had 12 years of vaccines yearly before I read about it, I think I would certainly rethink if I had a new dog. So much of the facts online seem to be from the States.
I am not sure about the vaccine timeline but I believe it is the Lepto that does not last, I guess like the vaccines for covid :005:
I would write titre or titre test in the search box on here located top right hand side under the slogan for Simple Machine forum, it will throw up the threads it's mentioned it.
Does Nutty have pet insurance as it asks dates on claim forms for vaccines. So I assume the titre testing if required 3 yearly or whatever would need to be up to date.
Take care
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I bought myself a book on vaccinations (unfortunately in German and there doesn‘t appear to be an English version, otherwise I‘d have recommended it! >:().
As far as I am aware, the lepto a) doesn‘t last long and b) doesn‘t cover all strains. Things like Kennel cough are recommended here and was one of those which caused a „discussion“ :shades: with my vet. A lot of the initial vaccinations give protection for years and don‘t need to be refreshed as some vets would have you believe. I also think you need to weigh up the risks, depending on circumstances - country\ city dogs face different risk levels for example.
Just to clarify, (I’m always wary of starting a heated discussion, it IS a controversial subject! ;) ) I‘m not against vaccinations but I don’t think ALL of them are necessary and in my opinion, Titre testing is a great help in helping us decide when and what is necessary (same as test for worms instead of worming willy nilly).
:D
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So hubby took Ollie solo to the vets today and he was on his best behaviour ( hubby and Ollie :shades:)
Ollie was due 12 month check up and booster, but I told hubby to mention the concern around vaccine and Ollie's reduced immune system having read basically it is of little use when on steroids.
The vet said she agreed and having read his recent history it was not advised as would have such a reduced effect. So no battle at the vets. Possibly it will not sit well with insurance but as I expect the premiums to be un sustainable when renewal comes in I will take it one step at a time, after all in January life seemed so dark but my brave boy is still enjoying each day.
Now before you think I have overtaken the subject - hubby mentioned that the young vet was more keyed into the modern thinking and mentioned if insurance did question it she could write explain reason because the other tests to check his immune system would not be helpful and I assume she meant titre testing.
Sorry I have strayed away from main thread but thought John might check in.
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As far as insurance goes my lot are happy to insure and unvaccinated dog, but you wont be covered if they get the illnesses that the vaccines cover, not sure if others are the same
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As far as insurance goes my lot are happy to insure and unvaccinated dog, but you wont be covered if they get the illnesses that the vaccines cover, not sure if others are the same
Now you can’t put that and not tell us who you are insured with :shades:
I used to have a great vet but they retired :'(
I didn’t have my previous dogs booster every year - if you can get hold of the leaflet that comes with the vaccine (like with a packet of paracetamol) they actually state every 3 years (or the one my previous vet used anyway)
Ash will get her one year booster and then it will be titre testing or not at all just hope my new vet is agreeable
Spaying, I will get Ash done as she also has an umbilical hernia so that will be done at the same time. I will book her in about 3 months after her first or second season
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Cazza it is only the lepto that is done yearly and the others every 3 years....or at least that is my understanding.
It is like a mine field.
found on line Booster jabs for distemper, parvovirus and canine hepatitis are usually needed every three years. Booster jabs for leptospirosis are needed every year.
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Cazza it is only the lepto that is done yearly and the others every 3 years....or at least that is my understanding.
It is like a mine field.
found on line Booster jabs for distemper, parvovirus and canine hepatitis are usually needed every three years. Booster jabs for leptospirosis are needed every year.
Things have changed then since I last got my dogs injections- I didn’t get them vaccinated after they were 7 years old at all (titre tested) - Fern was 13 when she finally went and Rhum was 11 but being a lab who was attacked twice in 6 months prior was the reason he went at 11 :'(
I am sure our local vets vaccinate yearly and not just lepto, .
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Ours down in Suffolk do the Lepto 4 only, yearly and the other one 3 yearly, altho we pay the same yearly. It has deffo changed since I first had dogs.
Our vets like you to have the boosters on time for the first year (assuming we are talking pups) but the second and subsequent years they give 3 month's grace b4 having to have whole new course. (I did not know this until I had a reason for not going on the anniversary of the date at one time). But doing this could be a bit tricky if it comes to needing to put the dogs in kennels for any reason during the 3 month grace period.