over shot jaws

[kcj]

Hi
I was wondering if anyone knows much about over shot jaws, i have had working cockers for 10 years now and have never come across a working cocker with an over shot jaw. My friend  has just bought a pup and payed good money for her. He did ask about her bite at about 6 weeks and was assured by the breeder that she was fine, on arriving at her new home at 12 weeks of age, it has come apparent that her bottom jaw is over shot. Is this quiet a common thing.

[Helen]

seeing it quite a lot now over here - what annoys me is that they don't take the dogs that are throwing pups with jaw problems out of the breeding system - seems that if they have all the current 'health tests' and are the 'right' colour they'll keep right on breeding from them, and from dogs that actually have malocclusions too 

In the bad old days (and I don't advocate this at ALL) breeders would probably have got rid of the pups which may be a reason as to why they weren't occurring as often....

Is it really bad?  I know that some jaws adjust as they grow and they're not fully formed until 10 months-ish -  mild under/overshots can correct themselves spontaneously then.

An uncorrected jaw can in the end be quite painful for the dog 

[kcj]

Hi
 I have not seen the pup yet, you see i live in NZ now and my friend is in Australia, he has payed for pup, flight and now a months quarantine, we are hoping it comes right,but i don't know enough about this to give advice to him, i certainly would not be to happy in his shoes.  We have a very limited pool of working cockers at this side of the world. And this does not help. Why are breeders letting this continue. 

[Helen]

I have NO idea - it's a possibility the 'affected' dog that's throwing the pups is a FT CH in which case his/her offspring will be commanding hefty prices?  I see mostly undershot jaws and no attempts to quell the breeding of the lines seems forthcoming.

Maybe the breeder doesn't see it as a problem?  I do, I would not breed from a dog that throws or has a jaw problem...or a hip problem...or heart conditions in the line...but they still do 

It infuriates me that these things are overlooked as long as the standard tests are done 

What Nicola and I need to do is come back to NZ and bring with us some good working cocker stock 

[kcj]

 i am not familiar with the dam. As i said i have not seen the bitch yet but i will be getting some pic's.
I am just realy surprised that this has crept into the breed.

[Nicola]

What Nicola and I need to do is come back to NZ and bring with us some good working cocker stock  

That's the plan!  

If its the pup's lower jaw that's affected that's an undershot jaw which as Helen says is unfortunately not unheard of in working Cockers as people will often breed from dogs with poor bites regardless. Underbites are more common than overbites, they can sometimes self-correct, it depends how severe the malocclusion is, but I wouldn't necessarily count on an underbite improving unfortunately. Affected dogs should never be used for breeding though as they can and do pass it on and it can be a severe problem which needs surgery to correct. He'll need to keep an eye on the pup for difficulty eating and picking things up and also in case any of her teeth start to grow into the soft parts of her mouth.

Kirsten I've edited your post slightly to take out the names of the sire and dam, we can't really name individual dogs/kennels for stuff like this just in case. He's a very well known dog but I've never heard of the bitch, it would be interesting to see photos of her.

[kcj]

Sure no problem Nicola, you are quite right.
I would like to bring over a pup in a few years, so i will keep an eye on what is happening. I hip score and eye test,so what do you do when this problem occurs. We can put breeding restrictions on pedigrees over here, can you do this in UK, can't recall seeing anything about that.

[Nicola]

Yes pedigrees here can be endorsed so that 'progeny are not eligible for registration' (you can also endorse for export). In practice though I don't think it happens much with working Cockers, having read threads on the subject on several working dog forums the consensus seemed to be that a lot of people would not buy a pup with an endorsed pedigree, as in once the money's changed hands 'my dog and I'll do what I want with it'

Even a dog that's a great worker with clear eyes and a good hip score, if they have a dodgy bite should not be bred from. It's unfortunate for the affected individuals and their owners but it's just perpetuating the problem and as said before it can be quite serious in some cases and really affect the dog's quality of life.

[kcj]

Hi
Thank you for the advice, i hope it comes right and the pup is ok. One other question, if the bite is not to bad and it comes right would you breed from her?
I would be worried about the offspring. Genetically could this get worse.

[Jane S]

Undershot jaws don't come right very often - the lower jaw continues growing after the upper jaw has finished so undershot bites can actually get worse not better (although there will always be the occasional dog whose bite does improve with time)