CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: rubyduby on March 15, 2021, 04:44:00 PM
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Because my two year old Cocker has a high prey drive , and because she is prone to diappearing on scents, oblivious to us, I decided with spring looming I need to keep her under more control as I dont want her getting over excited and going somewhere she could get hurt or even shot. I have longline which I have tried to use, but she just gets to the end of it and pulls like a train, sadly she has had most of her life off lead, and this new approach is making her miserable and leaving me raging and in tears. I hate her being restricted, and I hate being dragged everywhere, I could try dropping the line, but she'll just zoom off...Doesnt help that I cant walk fast as I walk my older dog with her (11 yrs) and she doesnt really want to rush about like Amber does. I really am at my wits end, of course she has had no training whatsoever, as my OH thought it was above him to listen to me....now he doesnt even come with us or ever take them out...I am left with the problem, but tahts tough after all I wanted the dogs....
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Have you tried having a look at Absolute Dogs? They talk about Proximity Games that are designed to make your dog want to be near you and stop them running off.
I did some in the early days with Alfie and he is rarely out of my sight/ or me his, his favourite is randomly giving him treats (actually his food) when we are on the walk, it means he keeps coming back just on the off chance he gets something.
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Yes I have tried games, they are fine for a while but if she picks up on a scent she forgets games, and even treats, she isnt food orientated and when a good scent comes up the food is forgotten
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Forget walking her for the next few weeks. Go right back to basics. You need to instill sit, recall and stop. Keep her in your garden and practice until she has it nailed.
Gundog training will help with all above. Do you have a local trainer? Failing that there are some great online resources now: Ladies Working Gundog Group, Cunningshot Gundog Training (Emma is a personal friend who I would recommend) Laochlan Gundogs on Patreon and Beggarbush Gundog training who now have an online application for training.
Sunday I took Coral to a field for a training session. There was a pheasant in the hedge at the nearest corner, she hunted in the grass, had a number of retrieves in the vicinity of the bird - not once did she lose focus or free hunt. This is the same dog that spent 13 months on a long line from 9 months old.
Jayne
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I feel your pain.
My dog Sam was fairly good off lead until he got to about 9 months and he became very scent driven, so I started to keep him on lead, for months. then about 5 weeks ago started to let him off when walking with a friend and her dogs, all was well until I went down the track near our house and he went off after deer. He was gone. I had to phone my husband for help and he was found half an hour later but still wouldn’t come so had to be grabbed. So now he’s on lead again and he’s not easy to walk on lead. He can walk loosely when he is not tempted by anything but lunges and tugs a lot, and it’s a real battle. I have tried everything. He is a year old now. I feel it is 2 steps forward and 10 back, constantly. I am doing recall in the garden - we are next to a field and I can call him back from being next to the fence with a pheasant the other side but my confidence is shot when it comes to letting him off lead.
We saw a gun dog trainer in early January to help with walking to heel for a start, but I didn’t like the technique used.
I am with you too with the OH issue. I wanted him so it’s my problem 😥
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Unofrtunately I dont have a garden suitable for training anything, I did consider a training school, but when one appeared that was handy and sounded good, they wot take dogs that arent vaccinated , and I wont put my dogs thro that every year, never have in 40 yrs(touch wood) without issue. So another way we are being pushed into vaccinations, anyway back to square one, she will have to get used to the extension lead and road walks .....totally stumped. looked at online training but OH goes off on one when he hears the cost (some are ridiculous) okay to have a nice car on the drive, but spend money on something to benefit me or the dogs....thoroughly miserable and depressed, hate walking the dogs and sadly thats all I have .....
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I have been using a flexi lead as a compromise, some days are better than others. We went down the track today and he was crazy with all the smells, and wouldn't take any notice of me. The only time he did was when I pretended to collapse (I was getting desperate). Even then he wasn't even that bothered. I walked home in tears. I really do know where you are coming from. x
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I am no expert, far from it but I do work my dog (a lot) so I like to think that I have something to offer. My two peneth......there is no such thing as "free running" a spaniel especially a worker, they are hard wired to hunt therefore when off lead imo you need to engage with the dog by way of dropping balls, (dummy, gloves anything you want) to retrieve, and even actively hunting the dog, if dog is going to hunt regardless then it may as well be doing so under command. Train a return to handler (break away) after any contact with game or bunnies or anything at all, eventually you could train a sit to contact but I believe a break and return is easier for the dog as it keeps them flowing, instead of having to stop on contact it gets to carry on doing what it's doing but the opposite direction, it's relatively easy to train a break from flush / contact as long as there is a reward. Even a stop is not that difficult to achieve if you put the work in again as long as there is reward and engagement, I sometimes reward a stop with a ball just to tighten her up however most of the time the reward for stopping is merely a release command to continue what she was doing.....as I say I am no expert but the above is how I trained the chase out of my highly driven worker.
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This is how initially trained a break from flush/contact, four years ago so she would have been two ish. The reward for the sit to flush is a hunt for ball in opposite direction, I believe this or similar would work for contact rather than active flush, obviously you need to generalize the behaviour by moving on to actual birds, rabbit, deer or whatever.......just to give you an idea of what I am talking about, it worked for me but as I say I am no expert I just muddle along....
https://vimeo.com/182966806
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Just to prove how it develops in the real world....this was a few months after the training vid, this was part walk part training excersize it was not a shoot day, there is no stop whistle or command the reward was release command to continue hunting.....or free running.....call it what you want 😉
https://vimeo.com/189977130
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This is how initially trained a break from flush/contact, four years ago so she would have been two ish. The reward for the sit to flush is a hunt for ball in opposite direction, I believe this or similar would work for contact rather than active flush, obviously you need to generalize the behaviour by moving on to actual birds, rabbit, deer or whatever.......just to give you an idea of what I am talking about, it worked for me but as I say I am no expert I just muddle along....
https://vimeo.com/182966806
She is so focused - my boy is all over the place. I think I need to start from scratch in the garden. Where I live there are pheasants all around, so I can't walk anywhere without temptation. I like him to 'sniff' but his sniffs always turn into hunting and then pulling me all over the place. I haven't been able to use treats other than kibble as he's currently on an exclusion diet which has really set us back.
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Is he ball obsessed, or anything else that you could use as reward other than food treats
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Is he ball obsessed, or anything else that you could use as reward other than food treats
He likes playing with a squeeky ball in the garden and the house but as soon as we are out of the gate and into the outside world he drops it and is completely disinterested in it. I spoke to the vet today about his tummy troubles and she said just another two weeks then gradually introduce one thing i.e. beef or chicken for training but I have been naughty and have been giving him odd bits to call him in from birds the other side of our fence (it is a stock fence so he can see all the birds in the field), as an attempt to try and keep up some recall training. He is happy to have his food for rewards for basic things like sit and stay etc but I don't want to weaken my recall cue with kibble - if you know what I mean!
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The trouble is that once they find the fun of the flush or the chase it's difficult to get any engagement back, nothing trumps birds and game.
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The trouble is that once they find the fun of the flush or the chase it's difficult to get any engagement back, nothing trumps birds and game.
I don’t recall that he’s ever flushed anything, he chased deer once, and has been on a lead since then, although last Saturday we went up on Salisbury Plain I let him off with two other dogs. He had a good run around and did keep coming back. My trouble with our regular walks at home is the constant nose down bum wiggling tracking.
He was a bit better today, I kept him on the flexi but took my whistle and some beef and did quick pips and ran backwards and gave him some beef, that worked quite well, and I ran with him a few times. We did some waits and a lot of stops and sits. His engagement seemed better. So perhaps if I continue in this direction?
Sorry for hijacking your post rubyduby I think we are experiencing very similar issues though so hopefully you don’t mind xx
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Sounds like you have things under control 👍
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Sounds like you have things under control 👍
Gosh do you think so? That’s encouraging, thank you. He is only just over 12 months old so I am hoping that a lot of it is adolescence and will improve.
I did let him have a little nose down time on our walk but marking with ok go sniff and making him stop and wait when he was going too fast and/or reaching the end of the lead (and pulling my arm off) He is obsessed with hedges and I know if I let him off lead he will be gone through one and be off. >:(
I think the difference between today and yesterday though was that yesterday was cold and frosty = scents are more smelly and today i had beef! I think the whistle helped too and my commands and cues.
Thank you for your help :D
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Well, you have noted the issues and are taking steps to address them so yes I would say so. Hedges are problematic, they seem to pull a dog in, my one is same with hedges.
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I feel your pain. Dylan off lead has his nose to the ground all the time. He is only interested in smells. He doesn't chase balls or retrieve anything thrown. Any games we play to keep him close he tired of after two or three goes. He's always way ahead of us on walks, and although his recall is fairly good, when on the scent of anything interesting he is deaf as a post. All our other dogs have walked with us, not forging ahead, and especially now when there is the risk of dog theft, it grieves me that he just wants to be off ahead. Plus he is not into other dogs, but he loves people and freely goes up to them. He does usually look up and check to see if we are keeping up!
OH is really bothered by it all, he is talking about using a long line again, but I am not sure what to do for the best. Funnily enough, although we are surrounded by pheasants and rabbits, his nose is so close to the ground that he usually doesn't see them even when they are a few feet away.
Lesley
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Yes we are, but sadly as the country becomes more interesting with spring Amber as been absent more than usual, she knows where I am and usually gets back, tho on two occasions before she has had chance, someone has grabbed her and rung her disc number, they said she looked lost, but she was in an area she is very familiar with, so whilst I was panicking and chasing around they had her and where ringing my phone which is at home as I dont carry a mobile fortunately OH got the call and rang my brother who carries his and was with me, didnt want to be ungrateful, but had they left her she would have come back....have to say been so depressed I have been in tears about it, ......I think it would be easier without the older dog, as she doesnt want to walk as fast or far as Amber, and I take them together.
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All dogs love emergency whistle training . Top Barks on this forum has videos on it. Start in the house. Whistle signal + extra smellytreat in the same room, then between separate rooms, upstairs, then extending to the garden . Hiding and the whistle. Then a Tennis court or safe field.
Early on, Bob disappeared into a thick wood. I prayed my whistle would get him back, and yes he found us after a few minutes. My rescue terrier went down a quarry mine with branching passages, for 45 minutes, I’m sure the whistle guided him out, covered in mud.
I blow it in the house occasionally now , just for practice.
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I started with the whistle training and was okay for a while till, she got into scrub and pheasant/hare/der/country and then the result was very sporadic, usually if she is just tracking she will respond ,but if she is definately on a scent ..thats it. Today as usual I took her on a long extending lead, so got partially dragged (not too bad) but then in open fields she is pulling to follow a scent, today I was taken by surprise and she nearly pulled my arm out of it socket, so of course I yanked back just as hard I get upset and angrier by the minute,...I despise myself because I know she isnt enjoying the walks like she used too, she is casting around all the time and I am getting tangled around grass, bushes, heather and because of that I get angry, raging, with frustration , and she doesnt understand, and its my fault but she gets shouted at and I know it is totally unfair see the look in her eyes sometimes and it makes me feel sick, she wants to run...and I want her to run, I cannot cope with the thought of walking her like this everyday for the rest of her and possibly my life . There are no safe fields to let her off, its either wildlife or sheep or horses all around. I even try running following her but at 65 my running skills arent as good, and I end up blubbering or swearing. I am so tempted to release her, but I fear for her and whereshe will end up.
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You sound like you adore her, you’ve put so much work, time and energy in. If you let her run free you may lose her forever.
Can you take her walking right back to the beginning where she’s on a lead using a technique where she physically can’t get in front/pull you? That’s what i’m trying to do. Puppy doesn’t like it although she does like the treats she’s getting when she stays next to my left knee!
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I got Izzy as an 8 week old pup and from the start she was hyper. She would play with other dogs for a few minutes when we were out but would soon be haring off after a scent. I quickly realised that she would have to be ‘managed’ carefully. I discovered the wonderful COL when she was about 5 months old and started Top Bark’s whistle training. For about 7 years I used a 30 or 50 foot long line. I used it with an Ancol harness with a side attachment. (I think it was a ‘Walk your dog with love’ harness.) I used the harness and line on open ground and it worked very well. Izzy also had one to one gundog training which was useful but we never graduated to the group lessons because Izzy would have been off hunting!
She was brilliant at retrieving and we managed this with the long line. For the last year or so I have walked her off lead in our local recreation ground and she’s very good but if we are on the hills around about then I use the long line. Izzy is now almost 9 and I honestly thought I would never be safely able to let her off lead.
Izzy got plenty of exercise on the long line. I always reckoned that for every mile I did, Izzy did five!
Julia
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The longline would probably be a good option if it wasnt for the ground, opne fields are great, but most of the land we walk is moorland and has scrub/bushes. rushes. heather etc, and a longline just gets tangled. I was watching a training group online, but they all have empty mowed fields , which dont exist around here....
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I think you need to go back to basics with this dog, you need a stop whistle and a recall whistle trained with no distractions of scent sound etc then generalize the behaviour gradually working up incrementally until you have same control on your usual open ground. I still believe that cockers (any gundog breed in fact) need a job to do for you even on walks otherwise dog will work for itself ignoring any commands as there is no reward for complying with them. I am no expert of course but that's based on my somewhat limited experience.
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I think you need to go back to basics with this dog, you need a stop whistle and a recall whistle trained with no distractions of scent sound etc then generalize the behaviour gradually working up incrementally until you have same control on your usual open ground. I still believe that cockers (any gundog breed in fact) need a job to do for you even on walks otherwise dog will work for itself ignoring any commands as there is no reward for complying with them. I am no expert of course but that's based on my somewhat limited experience.
Hi Ips, do you mind sharing job ideas whilst walking a 15 week old pup please? I agree with what you’ve said and notice a huge difference in all behaviour/activities if Peanut is engaged. We’re working on eye contact and her having a job for a majority of her awake time, I’m compiling a list of jobs after a disturbing display of over excited behaviour yesterday which I’m nipping in the bud.
Opening poster - sorry to hijack.
Thanks. John.