CockersOnline Forum

Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Curtisio on June 07, 2005, 02:05:53 PM

Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Curtisio on June 07, 2005, 02:05:53 PM: I may be way off the mark...

are there already two official cocker breeds (the KC only showing one?) or if not how far away are we from the Cocker breed being officially split into two sub-breeds, working and show...
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Jane S on June 07, 2005, 03:55:27 PM: Think this subject was discussed not long ago but can't find the thread at the moment. All Cockers whether working type or show type are registered as Cockers by the Kennel Club - there is no distinction as far as registration is concerned. The breed has developed into 2 distinct types over a period of decades so it's not happened recently but I personally cannot see the breed ever being officially divided into two separate sub-breeds, not anytime soon anyway :) The same thing has also happened in a number of other breeds eg English Springers, Labradors, English Setters, Golden Retrievers where the show type often differ radically from the working type.

Jane
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: paddys mum on June 07, 2005, 05:25:42 PM: Can I ask a question (she says playing devils advocate ;) :) )
Can you show 'working' cockers? If not whats the reason? - not that I'm thinking about showing, just interested :)
Thanks.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Jane S on June 07, 2005, 05:40:29 PM: Quote
Can I ask a question (she says playing devils advocate ;) :) )
Can you show 'working' cockers? If not whats the reason? - not that I'm thinking about showing, just interested :)
Thanks.
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In theory there is nothing to stop anyone showing a Working Cocker & you do see the occasional Working Cocker shown in the Field Trial Class at Crufts but generally a Working Cocker would not do well at shows since most breeders of this type are not really aiming to breed to the Breed Standard but are looking for working ability.

Jane
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: paddys mum on June 07, 2005, 06:10:57 PM: That makes sense, thanks for the reply Jane. :D
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Emma&Harry on June 07, 2005, 08:13:40 PM: agree - my 'working cocker' wouldn't get very far at all in a show!!

well ... perhaps the local 'cutest dog comp' or waggiest tail!!
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Becky on June 07, 2005, 08:56:40 PM: Neither of my 'show type' boys would excel either. :lol:

It really winds me up that whenever we watched crufts, and when we went this year, my husband, who loves dogs but thinks my obsession is a bit sad, can almost always spot a good dog, and picks most of those placed, and I always get it wrong even though I've read the breed standard and so on. (I know that doesn't qualify me as knowledgable, but I should be a darn sight better than him :rolleyes: :lol: .)
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Mike on June 08, 2005, 09:16:55 AM: It always fascinates me to hear fo our European counterparts who both show and trial their (show-type) cockers. Leads me to believe that the distinction of working/show type is much more prevalent in the UK than in other countries - is that accurate?
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: NinaW on June 08, 2005, 10:42:31 AM: Quote
Leads me to believe that the distinction of working/show type is much more prevalent in the UK than in other countries - is that accurate?
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No I don't think so, well not in Norway anyway. My show cockers are nearly all UK breeding, and with a little bit of training they do well for a "hobby hunter" like me :D However if I wanted a very fast hunting dog, that would last a full day, day after day, I would go for a working type. "All" working cockers in Norway are from UK lines, and looks the same as the working cockers in UK. A different is, that in Norway you would not be able to buy a working type if you "just want a pet".

Nina
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Mike on June 08, 2005, 10:48:51 AM: Interesting that you couldnt buy a working cocker as a pet in Norway :)

That makes sense what you said Nina. I guess the only difference then is that show-type cockers are still field-trialed at competiton in Europe, whereas they aren't really in the UK. Thank you for the info :D
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Sarah_S on June 08, 2005, 11:57:38 AM: In Dk, u wouldn't be able to buy a working cocker as a pet either. But that is only because there are so few of them. if a hunter wants a hunting dog he will buy a working springer instead. (and they are sold as pets <_< )

Working cockers in DK look the same as UK working cockers. It is not very common to see cockers in general hunting in DK, but it is far most common to see standard cockers work.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: crazyspaniels on June 08, 2005, 12:00:00 PM: trouble is if you split the breed there are working x shows so what would they become, a cross breed?? they are still pedigree cockers? and in fact the cross between the show and working is becoming popular as people want agility dogs with some of the attitude of a worker but a bit of the show too :)
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Mike on June 08, 2005, 01:04:41 PM: Are Sprockers still being actively bred too, do you know Freya? I never quite understood the logic as I never saw a huge distinction between working springers and cockers anyway?
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: crazyspaniels on June 08, 2005, 02:37:19 PM: If you looked at any field sports mag you would find adds for sprockers, in fact there was a lovely sprocker - called that by the announcer, competing in scottish agility show on saturday. Must admit my working springers are not like my working cocker, but then my working cocker is a big pansy so I have nothing to go by :lol: :lol:
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Mike on June 08, 2005, 03:00:56 PM: One thing my working springer does which I've never seen a working cocker do, is that when we go to the woods or in a big field, she'll run off in a giant circle around me - always keeping her eye on me in the middle - must be pure instinct. Or maybe Jazz is just a weirdo :D
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: crazyspaniels on June 08, 2005, 04:23:12 PM: Quote
One thing my working springer does which I've never seen a working cocker do, is that when we go to the woods or in a big field, she'll run off in a giant circle around me - always keeping her eye on me in the middle - must be pure instinct. Or maybe Jazz is just a weirdo :D
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mine just run like hell in the opposite direction :lol: :lol:
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Sarah_S on June 08, 2005, 05:14:10 PM: Quote
One thing my working springer does which I've never seen a working cocker do, is that when we go to the woods or in a big field, she'll run off in a giant circle around me - always keeping her eye on me in the middle - must be pure instinct. Or maybe Jazz is just a weirdo

That is not spanielbehaviour, that is a herding instinct. R U sure she isne't a clipped liver/white border collie? :lol:
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 10, 2005, 08:35:12 PM: I have both show bred and working bred cockers and I have hunted with them all (not the youngest one though). And you can find a very good workers on show cockers too, but then there are totally useless hunting dogs among them also. I strongly believe that when you loose the willingness to work, go under growth, natural instinct to game, eagerness etc. you loose THE COCKER. And I know cockers who are no cockers anymore, just cute little dogs. And my strong opinion is that there is some great similarities in these two types. They just are so cockery (no springers or other spaniel breeds).

My opinion is that the cocker spaniel is working breed and we need to keep things so. And it is good that this breed has a serious posibility to offer those who want a good hunting dog.

(http://img174.echo.cx/img174/7595/ladysplitsryhm24rj.jpg)

My hunting spaniels Nana, Susu, Tara and Anni
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: KellyS on June 10, 2005, 09:27:53 PM: Arrh they look lovely!!! :D
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Penel on June 10, 2005, 09:52:13 PM: Quote
in fact the cross between the show and working is becoming popular as people want agility dogs with some of the attitude of a worker but a bit of the show too

this makes me a bit cross though - because the working lines don't get the health problems that the show cockers get - yet.
With Beardies they are split - show Beardies and working Beardies - and working Beardies can only be registered on the "working register".
i'd be quite happy if they did this with cockers - as I would not want to see them mixed.

I have to say I saw the most lovely sprocker the other day - at a local kennels where a friend works - he had come from the local pet shop that still sells puppies :unsure:
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: NinaW on June 10, 2005, 10:18:13 PM: Quote
this makes me a bit cross though - because the working lines don't get the health problems that the show cockers get - yet.

Well, don't know much about working cockers and health, but I know for a fact that over here the working cockers have more hips problems (higher score) than the show cockers does.

Nina
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Jane S on June 10, 2005, 10:22:09 PM: Quote
this makes me a bit cross though - because the working lines don't get the health problems that the show cockers get - yet.
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Are you sure about that Penel? There have been poor hip scores recorded for some Working Cockers over the past year or two meaning that HD at least isn't confined to show lines. Of course not many Working Cocker breeders put there dogs through the various health schemes, though a few do hip score & eye test (like Kirsten who posts on here)

Jane
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Penel on June 10, 2005, 11:37:55 PM: Show cockers are getting HD more and more thought aren't they... at least I keep hearing that :( I personally have not heard of working cockers with hip problems.
Show cockers get kidney problems, eye problems, and ear problems, and autoimmune disease - which of course is the most pertinent to me personally having lost a 5 yr old show cocker to SLE - I run a group for owners of AI doggies - we have had many (show) cocker members over the last 3 years - no working cockers - same as we get very few terriers - but lots of Weimaraners - some types are prone to it - some are not and this is down to a genetic predisposition.
You only have to look at the health section on here to see the health problems that our show cockers are getting .... I am sorry if you don't agree with me, but that's the way I see it :( .
For example, I doubt you'd get lip fold dermatitis in a working cocker, cos they aren't bred for what they look like - they don't have the same shape heads, with floppy lips.
I agree with you that most working cocker breeders don't do the tests - I think they don't see it as necessary because generally they are a healthier strain.
Most of them have bred working cockers for a long long time - they tend not to "line" breed the same way that show cocker breeders do - ie to "fix" certain looks - working cockers are bred for working ability, stamina, health....

I am not meaning to offend any show cocker breeders by writing this - the above is my opinion, from my personal experiences :)
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 11, 2005, 12:44:48 AM: things is though - like many breeds in the past in the days of the larger kennels - breeders of both types line bred, many fiercely guarded their blood - possibly to the deteriment of the breed by not making it available to others and others would probably have line bred to their own until theirs became a closed strain. Relating this to working strain - some strains will have better heads than others, shorter or longer bodies etc etc. I dont doubt for a minute that this was intentional in many cases - the ability to work being the prime goal but this is the legacy we have. I think that in common with many other breeds, the popular sire syndrome is part of the reason of not line breeding now. Foe example in the working lines so many bitches are being put to FT CH Chyknell Gold Star and his sire FT CH Danderw Druid and before that his sire FT CH mallowdale Rackatear. I am not decrying these dogs at all - they have been big winners and produced winners and although they are not for me and I dont have their blood, I can understand why they have been widely used, but, then breedersy go on to the next big winner regardless of how he is bred. I could be cynical and say that maybe the pups are worth more or come with more kudos. I really dont know.

I personally like a worker to look cockery and all things being equal do try to breed to the standard without compromising on temp, health and ability. I do not like the springery types that appear - there is no doubt in my mind that there has been in the last 10-20 years an injection of springer in and also we have the unproven (to my knowledge) but widely accepted theory of an english setter cross behind a certain line some time ago.

I havent heard of eye or hip probs in working lines but again - taking both types of cockers into account - there is maybe only 60 dogs a year hipscored against new registrations of 14000 per year so i dont think anyone can formulate much from that. at least there are a handful more eye tests done but I cant see how you can draw a picture with the appalling apathy in testing in both types. I would love my total hipscores to be in single digits - I seem to average a total score of about 11. still wanting to breed that elusive 0:0!! pigs will fly that my latest lovelies will get that as the amount of digging in the garden they are doing - they will have environmental damage to their hips if not genetic!!
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 11, 2005, 06:26:14 AM: Now I have to inform you who think working strain is free from HD. It is not! I have a bitch from the finest english workinglines and she has a very severe HD and has been operated last october and now she can be without painkillers. This is her x-ray:
(http://img121.echo.cx/img121/7816/taralonkat5jg.jpg)

We have here in Finland about 20% of all cockers C-hips or worse. I actually think that hips are a bigger problem in this breed that eyes.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 11, 2005, 06:37:00 AM: And mixing the lines: the greatest spaniel of all times (field trials) is FTCH Speckle of Ardoon (3 times winner of the cocker championship 1971-72-73) and she was from a working mother (Colleen of Elan) and show bred sire (Tireragh Silver Starlight s. Sixshot Otto the Owl). She can be found in the every pedigree of working cockers.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Jane S on June 11, 2005, 09:12:56 AM: Quote
I personally have not heard of working cockers with hip problems
HD scores are published in the quarterly KC BRS Penel - that's why I am aware of poor scores in a small number of Working Cockers (very well known Field Trial affix). I don't believe in this myth that Working Cockers are all completely free from genetic problems & show Cockers are riddled with them - the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Show lines may be more prone to certain specific condition like FN (not heard of any Working Cockers affected with this) but you cannot say there are no problems in Working lines at all. An older Working Cocker I used to trim was hypothyroid (an auto immune condition I believe) although her owner was not aware of this until I suggested her extreme weight gain & lethargy might have another cause other than middle age spread ;)

I agree with Kirsten that "popular sire" syndrome can cause problems, whether it be working Cockers or show-type Cockers. It's often said that Working Cockers don't have problems because they don't "inbreed" like show-type breeders (have seen this stated on some Working Cocker websites) but I've seen Working Cocker pedigrees which are very closely linebred to particular Field Trial winners so this is no different to the way show breeders often line breed to well known show winners. If those well known winners carry a problem, then that's where the trouble starts. I also get very depressed by the apathy shown towards testing for hereditary problems in the UK (across all sections of the working/show divide)- it's all very well saying "my dogs don't have problems so I don't need to test" but often you may not find out there are problems until you do start testing.

Jane
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 11, 2005, 01:46:15 PM: yes - I think the truth is somewhere in the middle too.

I also get my vet to take blood and get a thyroid reading when young and keep tabs on them so I have a bench mark normal range for each of my dogs from usually 18 months (ie the individuals normal reading) so I know if there is a significant change as they get older. I get the vet to copy the test results and keep it in my files as my 'certificate' of testing. I dont know if I can do anymore than eyes, hips and thyroids. While I dont want to go looking for problems as such and get overly paranoid, I feel that I have covered as much as I reasonably and responsibly can.

The other reason I test so much is that apart from the fact I genuinely care about the breed as a whole and my dogs as individuals, I am concerned about the way the world is going in terms of the 'sue everyone' culture. with the best will in the world, not every dog will be 'perfect' and I would hope that if I am ever in the unfortunate position of one of my pups developing an unforseen problem and the owners tried to sue me, I could demonstrate to a court that I had taken every reasonable step in ensuring the health of my breeding, far exceeding any recommended tests (at this moment in time).

Would be interested in anyone else's thoughts on the above.

K
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Penel on June 11, 2005, 07:36:39 PM: I think you are doing a great job by doing those tests - are you doing the thyroid auto antibodies test as well as measuring T4, TSH ? that way you can tell whether or not your dog is "likely" to develop hypothyroidism - while hypo-t is usually auto immune - it is one of the easiest and less serious AI conditions, caught early. A dog would not usually die from hypo-t - but they often do from AIHA, SLE, IMTP - all not rare within show strain cockers.

Regarding the breeding of working cockers, I did say that I only write from personal experience - Hattie's breeder outcrosses - he breeds his own great workers to other great workers that he knows personally - he doesn't do the "popular sire" thing - thank goodness. I am very grateful to my friend that introduced us to him. :)

Ulla - I am very sorry to see your dogs x rays - all I can say is that those obviously aren't the finest working lines are they :( they may be "supposedly" but literally that is not the case is it :( your quote "She can be found in the every pedigree of working cockers." are you sure about this - every single pedigree of working cockers ? :unsure:
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 11, 2005, 09:41:08 PM: Would have to check - I suspect I am only testing T4 and TSH!! I have a springer on soloxine for under active....Just found a print out - my vet sends them to Idexx labs in Wetherby, Yorks although they sometimes process them inhouse too.. and its the T4/TSH ratio. STill - thing is I get them rechecked every 18 months or so to make sure that there is no significant change. I am actually on thyroxine myself and my (so far unaffected) dogs get checked more regularly with in reality no need, than I do!!

Re FT CH Speckle of Ardoon - I think it;s fair to say she is in many and possible most of todays pedigrees through Gwibernant, Wernffrwd etc, but not all. Born 1st July 1969. She only had 6 offspring -
to her litter to Jasper of Gwibernant she had Advie May Fly

and to Ft Ch Templebar Blackie she had:
Imp of Gwibernant
Ardoon Romper
Gwibernant Capcajou
Terra of Templebar
Sultan of Templebar

However - and I stand to be corrected, not all lines post 1969 contain her - using the dam of my oldie as an example - Jordieland Della of Lorne does not contain her. She was born 1983. However she was mated to a dog containing Gwibernant Eel and FT CH Carradog of Iarl so her progeny to Whiteadder Pirate contains 2 lines back to her. It is true to say though that every working bred cocker I currently own/have bred, and also my recent workerxshow pup, contains lines back to her.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 11, 2005, 10:03:02 PM: I'm so positive about it that Speckle can be found nowadays in every pedigree. When I did search my girls pedigrees found her at least 10 times in the 9th and 10th generations. So I think it is almost impossible to find a pedigree still without her.

Here are my girls pedigrees (5 generations):

Tara: http://ladysplits.tripod.com/id17.html (http://ladysplits.tripod.com/id17.html)
Anni: http://ladysplits.tripod.com/id25.html (http://ladysplits.tripod.com/id25.html)
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 11, 2005, 11:14:47 PM: yes - your girls have a lot of Gwibernant/Wernffrwd/maesyyderwen in them as do most of my current ones - but the Jordielands were line bred and although hard to find the blood now, not all if any of their dogs contain Speckle as they more or less remained inside their own strain adding in Laigh Park. take FT CH Laighpark Dazzle born in the mid 1980's. She doesnt contain any Speckle in her. However you may well be right in that today it is impossible to find any breeding without her. She appears in the 5th gen of some of mine.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Sandy J. on June 15, 2005, 07:36:12 PM: Quote
Leads me to believe that the distinction of working/show type is much more prevalent in the UK than in other countries - is that accurate?
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In Poland there's no such distinction - every cocker is a "show type". And only dogs which take part in shows and do well can be bred - if they don't, their puppies can't be registered and our kennel club don't consider them(the puppies) as pure- bred cockers, even if their parents are registered. So there's no way to separate a working line. (I hope it's understandable - sorry for my English)
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 20, 2005, 09:08:19 AM: ^That's the same in Denmark. How ever I don't get it how it correlates to pure breedness? I think they are pure bred if they have a pedigree. And I don't get it why just the show results matter? This is a gundogbreed and I really think that merits from field are equally good or even better than just show results. A real cocker is also able to work.

We here in Finland have no limitations in merits. But the dam and sire needs to be eye- and hipexamined, but there are no other limitations in order to get the dogs registred (you can even register puppies from E+E parents... it is the breeder who then takes responsiblity about the matter...).

All our FIN Ch are qualified on field and there are no SH Chs. And every working cocker needs a good from shows for the FTCh... and that's sometimes difficult. But not every show bred make to Ch eigther... they don't manage to get trough the working test.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 23, 2005, 10:37:05 PM: Ulla - you might appreciate the irony in the following. I receievd this strange email this morning - I have never met the person and it took a while to work out who they were. The bulk of which I have retyped in my own words to avoid any suggestion of libel and copyright I wont put my reply but you can guess what I said. I find quite unbelievable - both in content and cheek!! It is a very very sad state of affairs though if this is a representative view of the FT fraternity in the UK.

had looked at your website. We who breed/train and trial our working cockers do not eye test or hip score. as my web site shows the health tests of my dogs, I am implying to the public and therefore misleading them into thinking there is a problem in the breed. According to the author of the email, the top FT lines are free from genetic weaknesses unlike the show types ..

so there we have it!!
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 23, 2005, 11:08:55 PM: Unbelieveble! Don't bother with that! That's how it is in dogworld. Peolple are stupid and cruel.

So these people put their hed in the sand: Dogs are healthy and don't trerefore need to be tested. How do you know if they are? My Tara is not the only working cocker who has HD and it is heretary!! I have a show bred cocker who has C/D hips and now when we study her sires statitics: almost 60% of his offsring has C or worse. So I should have guessed about it.

Did you knew that Hedley Millington (Nancarrow cockers) does eye testing to his dogs? I think he is a "serious" working cocker man.....

Here is a link to swedish cockerdatabase: http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/htmlhund/htmlhund.htm (http://www.rasdata.nu/cocker/htmlhund/htmlhund.htm)
Look for the familiar kennels so you can find health info about the workers and also about course show breds. A very informative site.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Penel on June 24, 2005, 09:18:57 AM: How disappointing that you received that email - why can't people be realistic, and honest. I am more than willing to accept that there are health problems in the working cocker too - but I still believe that there are not nearly as many as in the show cocker.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 25, 2005, 12:04:01 AM: I wrote a very strong reply to the person to let them know who was testing (including Hedley) and I picked one BRS supplement off my bookshelf at random and there was a working cocker with a non too great hip score in that particular issue which I quoted to her . I put forward my thoughts and reasons etc etc and demanded an apology for an email which I admit to being very very upset about (I cant understand why anyone wants to condemn those who test, esp when so far none of my results have been bad, so in actual fact by having my test results on my web site I am in a way promoting the breed I suppose, so it's all very positive I think) - esp bits which were personal to me which I have not reproduced above.

Anyway - to cut a long story short, the person has apologised for jumping to conclusions about me personally without finding out more about me and my background in the breed (which is a good few years longer than theirs...) and for offending me. I think I have given said person something to think about and they have asked me to put forward my thoughts on various matters pertaining to health to move forward and as they put it 'find a solution' I dont think there is any other solution than by testing and not breeding from unsound stock (I am leaving Optigen out of this at present as I do realise that a carrier can be bred to a clear safely etc etc but the discussions will start at basics) .

Ulla - can you explain more about the scoring used in Scandanavia to me please? I assume A is the best - what is the worst possible - is it E? Just for interest!! Thanks.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: Ulla R on June 25, 2005, 01:47:39 PM: A= the best score
B= healthy, but slight changes
C= slight dysplasia
D= dysplasia
E= severe dysplasia

You can also get results like A/B, A/C, D/E which tells you that the hips differ from each other. So at the moment I have one B, one C/D and one D/E. :(

By the way: my Tara is Optigen A1 (tested a year a go) and Nana Is B1. Her father has PRA.
Title: Split In The Breed?
Post by: workingcockers on June 26, 2005, 09:56:34 PM: Thanks Ulla!!