CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: ETavernor on January 25, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
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Our golden Cocker Betty is 13 weeks old and we've had her for five weeks today. A couple of weeks ago she started growling at the children when they touch her or try to pick her up. It's not everytime, just occasionally. Tonight my son was playing with his marble run when Betty came over to have a nosey. He carefully picked her up to put her in another room away from the danger of the marbles. As he did this she turned, growled and bit him on the cheek. I'm really shocked and upset. Our last Cocker, a male blue roan would never have dreamt of such a thing. He was the kindest, most gentlest of dogs and was so so tolerant of the children. His wonderful temperament was the reason I chose to get another Cocker Soaniel after he sadly passed three years ago. We chose our puppy carefully after meeting Betty's gentle and loveable Mum. We never met her Dad. I'm really gutted this has happened. Had anyone got any tips? Betty needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable and I'm very worried having three young children in the house. Thanks.
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13 weeks is still young and she is still finding what is acceptable. As the children are smaller she probably sees them as equals which is something you need to work on. All dogs are different, so your old Spaniel may have been soft and gentle and there is nothing to say your puppy will not be. She is still finding her boundaries and you are going to need to be very firm in your approach.
Use this forum for any problems as I know of others who have had problems. Our boy went through an awful stage of the cockerdiles and I wrote about it on here. Now he is the softest little sock thief you could meet and our children cannot move without having a spaniel looking at what they are doing.
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Thanks for your reply. Yes I think we definitely need to work on where she lies in the pecking order! It's funny because she was the most quiet and calm in her litter. My friend has her brother and she is very bossy and dominant over him when they get together. Funny how she has changed. I really hope we can sort this out. 😄
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You don't say how old your children are - could it be that one of them has picked her up a bit clumsily or possibly she's being picked up too often? I do agree with Mark, she's still very young and probably sees the children as playmates and equals. Maybe you could decide on set times for the children ro play with her and then let her have time out to sleep and they can also play in peace without her getting in the way. She needs to respect they don't want to play with her all the time and they also need to know she still needs lots of sleep. I think its probably just a question of over excitement but nevertheless it needs to be nipped in the bud! Good luck!
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Thanks Bizzylizzy. My children are 3, 7 and 9 years. It was my 7 year old that picked her up and was bitten. He's pretty good at handling Betty, as is my 9 year old. At times my 3 year old can be a bit over zealous and her hugs can be a bit too much. We've told them all that when Betty is sleeping she must be left alone. Sometimes I carry Betty onto the school playground when I'm picking up the children. Most of the time she's fine but sometimes growls when children approach her. It certainly needs nipping in the bud - fiery red head!
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It sounds as though Betty has found a wonderful home with Children to play with!
Pearl was the quiet one in her litter but definitely the boss! She would whip all the pups up into a frenzy then leave them to it while "supervising" - I've written many times on here, that she is an anxious dog and does need careful handling. I'm not suggesting Betty does but it may be wise to not let your 3 year old handle her too much until she has passed the "cockerdile phase".
Can I ask how much sleep Betty is getting? I found that Pearl became fractious if she didn't have a set pattern/routine of sleep for up to 18 hours a day. I've enforced the routine with Coral who was a delightful pup up to the teenage stage but that's more about obedience outside and is a lovely, sweet natured cocker spaniel indoors!
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My first thought was the same as bizzylizzy's. It sounds like the puppy has in some way had a negative experience with one of the children and is now anxious about being picked up by them. I would ask the children to stop picking her up and would make sure the 3-year-old in particular is supervised with her all the time. If the older children need to move her from a situation, they could use treats to lure her away (which will also be good recall training).
Does she have a safe place she can go to get away from the children? Puppies and children are a great mix and can enjoy playtime together but Betty also needs a safe place of her own that she can access herself when she's had enough and where the children know not to disturb her. I would use a crate for this and I would also crate her for short periods during the day to force her to rest as sometimes puppies don't know when to stop.
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I agree with twiceover2 but would like to add that many dogs simply don't like being picked up or hugged, and that should be respected. The younger of my current two Cockers is like that and when he was a puppy I taught him that being picked up and handled by me, my husband and a friend, groomed by me, checked by a vet etc. was something he could get used to and feel safe and fairly comfortable about. But I did it gradually to give him time to get used to things. He was never a cuddly puppy and I respected that. He likes to lay down on the sofa next to me, but he rarely chooses to really cuddle up, and that's fine by me. Perhaps Betty will be like that?
Personally I'd also stop taking her in the playground. When she growls at the children there she's telling you that she's uncomfortable with the situation she's in. That's not dominance or anything to do with pecking order. She's worried and not coping. The growling is a sign of that, the only way she can tell you and the children that she's uncomfortable. Worst case scenario is that one day she feels pushed beyond her limit and bites or attempts to bite a child through fear. I know you wouldn't want to risk that, so perhaps keeping her out of the playground and at a reasonable distance from the schoolchildren, one where you can see she's relaxed, would be a good idea.
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I remember picking Humphrey up when we first had him and had my hand under his tummy rather than supporting his bottom. He yelped and screamed and I learned afterwards that can be very painful for them if they're not picked up correctly. He's still uncomfortable with it now and I'm always very careful how I pick him up - he's obviously never forgotten it.
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I too would avoid young children at school. Youngsters tend to stare at dogs and they can find this uncomfortable. I know murphy does not like it.
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very sensible advice from Elaine as usual ;)
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx
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I don't think 'nipping in the bud' is the way to go. Everyone has given good advice. Probably summed up by trying to see things from Betty's point of view which is that of a very small easily scared animal to whom even your 3 y.o looks like a terrifying giant. :o
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I agree with twiceover2 but would like to add that many dogs simply don't like being picked up or hugged, and that should be respected.
I was about to say this - one of mine was like this and hated being picked up - in her case it was because she was quite independent (she only became more tolerant of it when she became blind).
Often a good way to also remove a puppy if you can is to lure them with a toy or treat so they follow so you avoid confrontation
All pups are different - I had 2 blue roans here who were like chalk and cheese but both needed showing how to behave as time went on.
I am also a believer in pre-empting things so a little training would be good - short and sweet, but also get the older children involved in training too.
The dogs trust are currently doing workshops so children can be safe around all dogs and learn to handle them and read some of their behaviours, which is good even for pups, as a dog doesn't have to be bad or aggressive to be pushed beyond their limit. You can ask for these workshops to be arranged at schools or community groups or local libraries or may be they'd even do them if a group of like-minded parents got together and requested one. They are part of their Be Dog Smart campaign - sometimes despite being dog owners previously its worth a refresher from an independent source, particularly if its a while since an owner has had a pup and now has children
http://www.learnwithdogstrust.org.uk/free-learning-resources/Community-Education/be-dog-smart/index.html (http://www.learnwithdogstrust.org.uk/free-learning-resources/Community-Education/be-dog-smart/index.html)
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Daw, by "nipping in the bud", I wasn't putting any blame on either the puppy or the child, but whatever the cause, I'm sure everyone would agree if a puppy growls and bites a child the situation needs to be addressed and "nipped in the bud" very quickly. It might sound hard but we always adopted the one strike and you're out policy with the dogs when the children were very small (admittedly, we hadn't had them as puppies). We adored the dogs but our first duty was to the children. We never had any problems, thank heavens.
Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting for one moment, that I'd apply that this young puppy, she's still learning her place and its not her fault, but nontheless, a dog that bites + children is a no go.
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No of course not! It's just the phrase suggests the problem is with the puppy and it is more likely to be the situation the puppy is being put into. I believe the way to stop biting or growling in such a young and quite tender little thing is for it not to put into that predicament. Then it's :angel:
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Im sorry and don't want to offend but I wouldn't allow such young children to pick up a young pup to be honest.
Good point made by another poster about how they are lifted. I would imagine a child would put pressure on the tummy rather than support the bottom, back hips of the dog which I still do to a 15kg big boy!
Its great that pup and the children can grow up and enjoy life together but it can be quite overwhelming to a young pup having so many excited kids wanting to all play with her at once.
Riley at this age nearly 4 still doesnt like a lot of kids approaching him at once, i.e. the school yard. Kids are loud, excitable, unpredictable and HUGE to a tiny lilt 13 week old puppy. I would keep her out of the yard to be honest.
I think you are right as in telling the kids if Betty is sleeping then they must not approach her, nor if she is eating , give her space , peace etc.
She is just a baby and learning as are your kids, I hope you manage to find solutions and have a lovely family life with you all together.
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At that age, Bonnie was such a bitey cockerdile we wouldn't let our granddaughter, Evie, and her be in the same room together so I think your pup is actually doing well being in the thick of things. I knew Bonnie would bite without hesitation if Evie had picked her up so until Bonnie was older they were kept seperate most of the time.
Pups bite anyway and are much older before they learn bite inhibition so I'd say it's quite normal for a pup to bite when someone picks them up when it's not wanted (well, it is normal for cocker pups as we discovered ;)). Bonnie drew blood on many occasions and there was no reason for it most of the time. I'd take the advice of others on here and suggest that pup is just warning you she is uncomfortable with certain situations and definitely stay away from the school yard as it sounds like it is too much for her. At 13 weeks they're learning so much but do not understand any of it yet.. ...it will all come together.
Bonnie and Evie are best buddies now and they adore each other. Bonnie is the sweetest most loving dog now but boy was she a biter at that age!
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If by nipping it in the bud you mean to stop the growling then that is entirely the wrong thing to do - this is how they warn that they're not comfortable. Take away the warning and you could go straight from nothing to a bite.
As for pecking order - the dominance theory has been debunked. Yes you should teach and guide your dog but they do not see humans as their own species so why on earth would they see an human as an alpha or dominant to them?
To be honest I think your pup is overwhelmed by children, is just being a pup, and should have a safe place where she is not harrassed - this is where good crate training can be hugely beneficial ;)
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Just to clarify again, (sorry, but I really hate being misunderstood, its frustrating) all I meant was that the "situation" needs to be nipped in the bud. I neither suggested the puppy be prevented from or punished for growling,, it'd be like punishing a baby for crying. I was simply making the comment, as tactfully as possible, that the situation cannot be allowed to escalate and that quite obviously if a puppy growls and bites a young child, then there's problem that needs to be sorted. I do however admit, that the comment was probably stating the obvious, so probably not very helpful anyway but as lots of other very helpful advice has been given here now, I'm sure the OP will be happy that she can resolve the situation fairly easily. :shades:
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Thanks Bizzylizzy. My children are 3, 7 and 9 years. It was my 7 year old that picked her up and was bitten. He's pretty good at handling Betty, as is my 9 year old. At times my 3 year old can be a bit over zealous and her hugs can be a bit too much. We've told them all that when Betty is sleeping she must be left alone. Sometimes I carry Betty onto the school playground when I'm picking up the children. Most of the time she's fine but sometimes growls when children approach her. It certainly needs nipping in the bud - fiery red head!
You have just pointed out the main problem yourself a 3 year old will look at a puppy as something of a play thing and the pup is learning that children can sometimes be bit rough. it is a lot for a small pup to come to a new home have to learn to cope with all of the changes and cope with 3 young children. they nedd to all learn to respect each others space.
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We have taken a firm but fair approach with Betty over the past few weeks. We've tried to re-iterate that the children are her superiors and not her equals. Also we have constantly reminded the children that Betty needs her space and sleep and that they need to respect this. Betty does have a crate which she goes in when we leave the house and at night time but she will never choose to go in it during the day. She prefers to nap in her bed in the lounge. We've asked the children to avoid picking Betty up but this is not always possible. In my opinion my two older children are sensible and careful enough to do so if necessary. They know how to handle and carry her carefully and correctly. I've also stopped taking Betty into the playground as the children approaching her could have been too much and made her feel uncomfortable. Despite all this unfortunately Betty continues to growl on occasions when the children go to stroke or pick her up. Last night my youngest tripped and landed on the edge of Betty's bed while she was in it sleeping. Betty turned, growled and bit my daughter on her face. I'm now feeling on edge whenever the children are around her and fear that one day she will really hurt or scar them. She never growls at me or my husband it's just the children. As another member said children and a dog that bites are not a good mix. I've contacted a dog behaviouralist to see if he can help. Just really don't know where to go from here.
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I'm really sorry to read that Betty's behaviour is the same - as you know the old adage "let sleeping dogs lie" is said for a reason and whilst we all know it was an accident, to Betty, having your daughter suddenly land in her space and wake her - well enough said....
You obviously care very much about Betty and want to do the right thing by her, it's obvious from your post, which is why I'm a bit confused :huh: why let her sleep in an environment that isn't safe for your children when she has a crate? If it was me, I'd be popping her in the crate for set times/durations throughout the day...I do still with Coral who is now 12 months old!
I'd also be careful about letting Betty choose where and when she sleeps......it sounds as though she has you well trained ;) Pearl did this with me and I'm still facing the ongoing battle of wills almost 5 years on..........
Great idea to get a behaviourist in - please only let them use postive methods.....if Betty is an anxious dog using any form of rough handling or aversion may exacerbate her anxieties.
You may just be very unlucky and have a cocker spaniel who doesn't like being handled or petted.
Hope your daughter is ok?
Jayne
X
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I'm so sorry and can imagine how you must be feeling. I don't feel qualified to offer concrete advice as to how to deal with it, but Betty is still young so I'm sure, with the right advice and proper help, you stand a good chance of correcting her behaviour before it becomes a big problem. I think the best advice can only come from someone who can come in and see how Betty and your children are interacting, it'll be hard for anyone here to make a judgement.
Best of luck, -I'm sure she'll be ok but you do need to tacke it as soon as possible! :D
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Sorry to hear you are still having problems, but I think alot of dogs would react the same way if they were disturbed suddenly. My son when a young teenager went to say hello to our sleeping cocker and she nipped him on the nose. He learnt his lesson but accidents happen.
I agree about sleeping places, all dogs should have time out on their own. I was wondering what bedding you have in the crate. I used to have fleece, but in a fit of madness I bought large cushions. They both find them so comfy they won't always come out!
I'm glad you've called in a behaviourist who hopefully will give you help living in harmony.
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I understand that it will be a massive concern for you as we all want to do right by our dog but the safety of the children does come first. Betty is still young and her behaviour can still be corrected. I would make the crate a place where she feels very safe and also very comfortable. This is easy to do by putting comfy bedding in it and for a while partly cover the crate to offer a secluded area.
Does she resource guard? Can you go near her when she is feeding with her getting upset?
I think she is ok but is finding her life a bit of a confusing time and once she knows her position she will not be a problem.
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Hi, firstly I hope your wee one is ok? I can sympathise it can be very stressful having a young pup and small children but I've come out the other side with all my hair and sanity intact :shades: I think you're doing right by getting expert advice and help, it sounds like you're doing a really good job and believe me it does get better. My boy is coming 2 and is very gentle and loves the kids but he was a bit of a terror as a pup. As someone else has said use the crate if Betty is sleeping and I always let my pup eat in a childfree place whether it was dinner or a treat.
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If the crate isn't an option for her during the day please consider a puppy pen - I used one around the crate. I left the crate door open during the day so he could go in if he wanted to - but for the most part he slept in his bed in the puppy pen - would give pup an area where the kids couldn't accidentally fall on her. Would also provide a space where she could go safely until you are available to directly supervise interaction between her and the children, because to be honest - thats what is needed. Even at 7 and 9 although the children are old enough to handle the pup properly - they are still young enough to not understand her body language and when she is indicating she's not happy with a situation.
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As MaggieR has suggested, would a whelping pen be easier? Something like this?
Jinley had one as a puppy with her canvas crate inside. You can get ones with a base as well, but here is one I found.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/281276427044?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=pla-144471703986&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&googleloc=1007192&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80
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Some puppies, and adult dogs too, just don't like children! Children are unpredictable and noisy, you can't blame them really. Some puppies also don't like to be picked up or handled very much, even though we want to give them puppy cuddles. The growling is your puppy warning the human that they don't like something.
At 13 weeks old I don't believe your puppy has a behavioural problem. It's responses aren't abnormal for the situations you have described and certainly its 'biting' won't be being done with the intention of an aggressive attack. Your puppy is obviously not feeling comfortable in certain situations and therefore you need to reduce the chance of these situations occurring. My spaniel hated being picked up as a puppy and still hates it now, she growls and makes it pretty clear she doesn't want to be lifted up.
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Some puppies, and adult dogs too, just don't like children! Children are unpredictable and noisy, you can't blame them really. Some puppies also don't like to be picked up or handled very much, even though we want to give them puppy cuddles. The growling is your puppy warning the human that they don't like something.
At 13 weeks old I don't believe your puppy has a behavioural problem. It's responses aren't abnormal for the situations you have described and certainly its 'biting' won't be being done with the intention of an aggressive attack. Your puppy is obviously not feeling comfortable in certain situations and therefore you need to reduce the chance of these situations occurring. My spaniel hated being picked up as a puppy and still hates it now, she growls and makes it pretty clear she doesn't want to be lifted up.
I agree - Ruby hated being picked up and carried around by anyone when she was younger (only when she became blind did she accept it - it was as if she knew) - in her case it was because she was so independent (he half brother Wilf who I got a year later absolutely loved being picked up and cuddled). Also let's face it they have 4 legs so love to use them ;)
There are times when you can't keep forcing a situation as it will set up problems later. Each pup/dog is different and sometimes its down to genetics as much as it is socialising but its best to respect your pup's needs here as he needs nurturing in his own way
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Hi. I like all the advice given here.
We've tried to re-iterate that the children are her superiors and not her equals.
?? Maybe just a choice of words I don't understand but why are the children her superiors and who are you pointing this out to? I'd have thought they were fairly equal as your pup has probably the mental ability of a 2 or 3 yr old but speaks dog, not English, and is part of the same family. Good advice to get a positive behaviourist in here because if things continue as they are nothing will get better.
Best of luck
Diane
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its often best not to imply anyone being superior to the dog and may be reiterate respect for space
There are some great resources here
http://www.learnwithdogstrust.org.uk/free-learning-resources/Community-Education/be-dog-smart/index.html (http://www.learnwithdogstrust.org.uk/free-learning-resources/Community-Education/be-dog-smart/index.html)
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Can you not simply tell the children NOT to pick the puppy up ?? I am not sure in what circumstances they should have to pick her up and carry her around!
I did not leave either of my dogs as puppies in another room with my children, they were in the kitchen with me and if the children came in the kitchen I was there to supervise how they behaved.
I feel you are blaming the puppy for incidents that are happening, rather than looking at the source of the problem. You say your youngest accidentally fell towards your puppy and got bitten, suggesting that the puppy was completely to blame in the way it responded because your child only did it by accident. Your puppy doesn't know it was an accident, it was probably terrified it was going to be hurt!
If your puppy doesn't chose to nap in its crate in the day then put it in there! Don't allow the puppy to nap in its bed in the lounge unless you are there the whole time to supervise.
You cannot expect a puppy to slot into family life and just get on with it! My children are now 11 and 14, when I am looking after my friends puppy they still have strict rules to follow. No picking up, no disturbing when asleep on bed or in crate. The puppy stays in the kitchen with me so I know exactly what is going on and my kids are much older than yours and been bought up with 2 dogs!
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cocker puppies are know to be little terrors, we have had grown men and women on here thinking they have got some sort of evil puppy, with their trouser and ankles shredded having to wear willies in the house to protect their legs ph34r. They grow out of it and your pup sounds like an angel compared to some . I don't think for a minute the pup is doing anything wrong and the child falling just scared the pup awake. Why are the children picking the pup up anyway, would they do that with an adult cocker , you will confuse the pup saying that you are trying to teach it children are superiors ? .puppies are all teeth at that age and they will nip and bite anything they can get their teeth on , try freezing a kong and putting pup in crate for a bit of time out sometimes
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The only time Murphy has had a real go at Millie was when she fell into him by accident. I think it is natural instinct that the dog feels shocked and threatened.
As minimoo says, cocker pups can be real terrors and Murphy brought me (a 47 year old male) to tears on a couple of occasions. And he turned out okay (ish) :lol2:
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having to wear willies in the house to protect their legs....00ps :005:
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having to wear willies in the house to protect their legs....00ps :005:
We've been reduced to some things by cockers but never that! :lol:
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having to wear willies in the house to protect their legs....00ps :005:
We've been reduced to some things by cockers but never that! :lol:
Give it time, daw, who knows? :011:
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You're absolutely right! I'd do anything for them.
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Surely this is a problem with your children and not the puppy? And if you can't get them to act in the way you want, why should a small scared puppy be expected to?
Totally agree :shades:
Stephanie, George and Hamish xxx
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Can I just say please don't be scared off by some replies , everyone on here means well and you will get some damn good advice, even if its not always what you want to hear ;) :D
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I really sympathise with your situation ETavernor. You have been used to a placid, docile cocker who would tolerate anything and used your experience and judgement to get another and you are finding its temperament is, presently at least, very different. There are plently of naturally tolerant dogs out there, that was my former experience too, of dogs (and puppies) that would let children lift them, play around them and with them and fall into them without batting an eyelid. But your dog is not one of those dogs. And then you come to this forum for support and have to read some responses seeming to imply it is a problem with your children for accidentally falling on your dog, or with you, for not having the superhuman powers to control and prevent your children from accidentally falling.
I expect you got your dog expecting her to become a part of your family and you are now seeing that actually, limiting her contact with your children might presently be the safest option. And you might feel torn - because this was not how you were expecting to live and what does that mean for the future? And how will your dog begin to learn more manageable responses if you take her out of these situations altogether? Like I say, I really feel for you, we have had a similarly tough time with our young cocker but we are an adult household. We use a combination of avoiding known big triggers and attempting to desensitize him to situations - this involves gradually exposing him and rewarding good responses (or the absence of negatve responses!) He didn't like being picked up either but we now lift him 3 times a day and he is perfectly happy - this was a long, arduous process of treating him, and we are not being complacent - we do this every day in case he lapses back to his previous response. The same with leading him round with a hand on his collar which he hated and snapped at us over - we repeat this daily as well. But as adults we can make that informed decision ourselves, knowing there was an element of personal risk to us as we began that process - exposing children to a similar process of exposure is quite a different question. If it helps in any way our dog is definitely getting better over time and is more able to inhibit his instinctive responses.
I think you are doing the right thing in getting a behaviourist in, and until you feel you have got some good professional advice it does sound like the wisest thing to do would be to limit contact with the children, especially preventing those situations that you know might trigger a response. Your dog is not a bad dog, your children aren't bad children and you are not a bad mother or dog owner - you're just all in a difficult situation right now and I wish you the best of luck with it.
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And then you come to this forum for support and have to read some responses seeming to imply it is a problem with your children for accidentally falling on your dog, or with you, for not having the superhuman powers to control and prevent your children from accidentally falling.
Thanks Hoover for your response. I have come to this forum for support and some responses have been extremely unhelpful. I feel that some members have little experience or have forgotten how it is to have young children and a Cocker pup. Like Hoover said superhuman powers required in some of your 'ideal' situations. As it happens Betty is an extremely tactile and cuddly dog and does not usually have a problem with being picked up by me or my husband.
The dog behaviouralist that I spoke with has told me that this is a common problem and is real issue with Cocker Spaniels. He indicated it may not be a good idea to keep Betty. He was concerned that she had resorted to biting on the face at 16 weeks. Today I went to lift her off the sofa and she growled and went for me. I was shocked - first time she has done this. So tell me please how can that be the fault of my children.
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Rubybella - Yes of course I have told the children not to pick Betty up. I am constantly reinforcing how they should behave with her and when they should leave her be. The occasion when my son was bitten was when he was moving her away from swallowing a mouthful of marbles. I am not blaming Betty. I do not wear rose tinted glasses and am well aware this is as much the children's fault. However, the situation is Betty has come to live in a house with three children. The biting cannot continue and at the end of the day Betty is a dog and the children come first!
Daw/MacTavish Boy - Can I ask do you have experience of having children and a Cocker pup? Children will be children and I'm sorry but I do not have superpowers that stop my three year old from accidentally tripping and falling on the edge of the dog bed. I totally appreciate that this would have caused shock and fear to poor Betty. Today Betty growled and went to bite me as I lifted her down from the sofa. How can this be the fault of my children?!
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Wasn't suggesting it was a slur on your children but most of us have suggested some pups just do not like the sort of handling they may get from small hands (who's grip may be harder than they mean to do) plus children move faster than adults do and make more high pitched noises, which can often be scarier for some pups
many of us may also question what the behaviourist has suggested as well as it seems to be a slur on the breed as a whole and an amazing generalisation on the breed
It can also be suggested that certain pups (of any breed/crossbreed) are better suited to certain environments and others not - I have fostered some pups that I won't suggest they go to an inexperienced family or one with small children or we get pups in that will suit any family - even within a litter they can vary so much. My 1st cocker ruby would've been a nightmare as a pup in the wrong hands (she was strong willed, over-confident and very independent which meant she wasn't for everyone) but Wilf who I got next would be as easy as they come for any home). When I decided on Bosley I knew he would be a calm pup compared to his sister who I fostered at the same time (she was too much like Ruby).
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Firstly - choose your behaviourist carefully. I wouldn't entertain one that analyses over the phone and makes blanket judgements because they are dealing with a cocker spaniel (that they've not even observed). If they are from Bark Busters, walk away.
Secondly - your child should not be moving her away from any situation as she is clearly not happy with that.
Thirdly - she is resource guarding - the marbles, her bed, the sofa etc and the only way she can tell you she is not happy is to react in the way she is.
Fourthly - I do agree that sometimes rehoming is the best option, and in this case I would seriously consider it as this situation is no good for you, your children or for Betty.
Just a note on the dominance theory - it's been debunked. Your children are not Betty's superiors or inferiors as they are simply not the same species. If the behaviourist you are speaking too advocates dominance, or suggests rank reduction then seek help somewhere else. None of us can see Betty's behaviour which is why it is so important to seek help from a behaviourist that can, and who uses positive up to date methods. Choose one who is APDT trained :D
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Today Betty growled and went to bite me as I lifted her down from the sofa. How can this be the fault of my children?!
I had this with my pups (and some of fosters) when they were growing up - this is an opportunity for training though - just because a pup does this doesn't mean the pup is thus aggressive or is at fault either - they are pushing boundaries too. Your pup needs to be taught as well - best way I do it and was taught was instead of lifting the dog off the sofa they are taught to get off when asked - I do this by luring off with a toy or a treat, often pointing at the floor - once all four paws on the ground they get the treat and not before - after a while I introduce a cue like 'off' and then after a while they (well mine did anyway) would get off to the floor without the use of treats or toys and most of the time I just needed to point to the floor. This is the less confrontational way of doing things.
Dogs don't automatically speak human so its up to us to gently teach them which is why sometimes we need more expert help just for guidance and sometimes from someone who can see the pup in person but as Helen suggested pls ensure they are apdt and not buying in to breedist theories or those of dominance
Probably too far for you but i know http://www.waggawuffins.com/ are meant to be good but they're in Bury
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Hoover sums it up well and I hope you won't be put off by the forum! Basically, everyone is onl trying to be helpful but sometimes things get a bit heated, which is why I decided to keep my nose out after my opinion was misunderstood earlier back in the thread. I completely sympathise as I remember having my last dog when the children were small and it can get a bit overwhelming! I still think, with good advice and help from someone who can assess the situation in situ, its possible to find a solution without having to rehome Betsy. (My kids were "threatened", if they didn't do what I told them with regards to the the dog, it would have to go! ;) ). Do you get an opportunity to have her to yourself for a while during the day? Perhaps a time to stimulate her mentally to tire her out a bit and make yourself her center of attention rather than the children?
Puppies will push the boundaries, like children do, but I agree that a firm, non confrontational stance is a good reaction - as in the sitting on the sofa situation - if she's taught gently she's not allowed up there and that rule is adhered to ALL the time, she'll learn its not her place and that's one less problem to deal with. I really wish you luck and am sure being firm, consistant and, for now at least, non confrontational, will get you there in the end, but you'll have your hands full for a bit!!! ;)
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Can I ask how much research you did before getting a cocker spaniel, can I repeat there is nothing wrong with the pup even though she may not be for you. ANY behaviourist who makes assumptions about a whole breed over the phone is someone most owners would steer well clear of. As I said in a previous post, people on this sight are not blaming you or your children, its just that you seem to be blaming the pup in some of your posts. I have had 5 cockers, I currently have 3 so yes I am experienced with them , my youngest one could possibly have been a problem in the wrong hands as he is quite wilful. In all honesty she will probably get worse before she gets better calot of cocker pups are very bitey they call them cockerdiles for a reason . have a look at mark+carly posting
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One more thing....I think the term "superior" was perhaps a bit unfortunate, although I think most of us at least, knew what you meant. The dominance theory may well have been debunked and I would also argue that no species are superior (least of all the **** human race), however, dogs are pack animals where there is always a leader and the dog, in the family, has to be at the bottom. If the dog wants to cross the road and there's a lorry coming, there's no point everyone following him because "he's our equal and he decides" - obviously, the humans, including the children, have to be recognized by the dog as its leader, otherwise there'd by animal anarchy.
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Just sending you these :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: cockers on the whole are wonderful whirling bundles of joy who steal your heart. But they can be testing little buggers who will play you like a very clever child.
Consistency is key but if you are honestly thinking you have made a mistake contact your breeder about her having your pup back. He is still young enough to be re homed before his behaviour escalates. You need to make sure your children and their visiting friends are safe.
X
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Thanks Bizzylizzy. I am glad someone understands.
Minymoo - We chose to get a Cocker Spaniel because we've had one before. He was an amazing dog with a wonderful temperament. We love the breed and did lots of research before getting our first dog. This time round I visited several breeders. We decided on Betty as her mum was a lovely, friendly dog. The litter was also raised in a home with young children.
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Also meant to add that cockers by character want be part of everything going on. As already been said it's about distracting them by offering an alternative. This could be as simple as an empty water bottle with some biscuits in that your pup can occupy herself with. You could also all get involved in training. Just be consistent with commands and boundaries.
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Thanks patp. I have contacted Betty's breeder and she is happy to have her back. We're going to give things a little longer though and see if we can sort things out.
I am on edge when other children touch her. I was in pets at home the other day and a little girl wanted to stroke her. I was thinking 'Betty please don't growl/bite.' As it happened she was absolutely fine.
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I have had my own 2 dogs from puppies with 2 children who were 4 and 7 when the first pup arrived. The first puppy was a very mouthy, excitable black Labrador who really wasn't keen on young kids even being anywhere near her when she was resting, who resource guarded many things and had to be managed carefully, she still doesn't really like young children and I can't allow my young nieces and nephews to stroke her. When my spaniel puppy arrived 3 years later she seemed much happier around children but didn't want to be picked up and didn't like to be moved from places if she was quite comfortable, for example I wouldn't put my hand under the table to get her out, and I still wouldn't, as I know she would probably get grumpy with me, she will be 5 this year! You learn to use other approaches like coaxing them out if they do get somewhere they shouldn't be or you try to ensure that they don't have the opportunity to be somewhere in the first place.
We went through a stage with my spaniel of her not wanting to get off the sofa, if I tried to move her off by picking her up she would growl at me so firstly she was stopped being allowed on there in the first place. If she did get on she was asked to get off and treated, if that didn't work she was coaxed off with a treat or squeaky toy. It does work but needs constant reinforcement. You cannot allow her on one day and tell her off the next.
Ok, so now a more recent experience for me. I have been looking after my friends cocker spaniel puppy for 1 day a week from 9 weeks, she is now 7 months old. She went through a similar behavioue stage about the same age. She considered handing her back to the breeder as she was growling at her, she also attempted to bite and did bite on a few occasions. My friend was at the end of her tether, and was actually not bonding with the puppy. Having her 1 day a week I didn't really experience much of it but there were a couple of occasions where I witnessed it. However I never made much of it because I had seen it all before with my dogs, whereas my friend had previously had a very gentle and calm cocker and it was all a big shock! Fast forward a few more months and she is now 7 months. She is a delightful puppy and all that behaviour has stopped, my friend is much more chilled about her and has now bonded with her. To think that she nearly got rid of her makes me sad.
If you do decide Betty is not staying with your family, your first port of call should be the breeder, who should take her back.
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I will always say not to stroke Jinley to any children who ask. If you say it's ok and your dog gets poked or feels threatened they will react in the only way they no. Then it's my fault.
I make the excuse that she is nervous and to leave her rather than risk putting her in a situation that could end up bad.
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The dog behaviouralist that I spoke with has told me that this is a common problem and is real issue with Cocker Spaniels. He indicated it may not be a good idea to keep Betty. He was concerned that she had resorted to biting on the face at 16 weeks. Today I went to lift her off the sofa and she growled and went for me. I was shocked - first time she has done this. So tell me please how can that be the fault of my children.
Any behaviourist who gives this kind of "advice" over the phone and without meeting you or your puppy & who makes such blanket assumptions about a breed is being highly irresponsible & is probably not a member of one of the respected bodies such as the APDT or APBC. I do hope you find someone more sensible to help you - not sure where you live but if you give a rough area, perhaps members can make recommendations to you.
I know some replies on this thread have been quite blunt but on any forum, you will get different responses and not all replies will be as sympathetic as you might want but all are coming from a good place ie trying to help your family and your puppy. As a breeder, I have to say I would have suggested waiting until your youngest child was older before getting a puppy - young puppies and 3 young children including a toddler is always going to be quite challenging and very hard work. Yes some puppies are exceptionally placid and tolerant and can make it all seem easy but all puppies are different and Betty's behaviour is not out of the ordinary considering the situation. Only you can decide what to do next but if the breeder has offered to have Betty back, at least this means you do have a way out if you feel you cannot cope any more. Once we took back a puppy for a week from family who were finding life difficult with their puppy and that week was enough to convince them they couldn't live without her and were going to try much harder to make things work - they did and that puppy grew up to be fantastic dog and lived a long, happy life after the initial bumpy start. Perhaps this might be an option for you, just to give you time to regroup and think what to do.
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I would find a recognised trainer/behaviourist who would come and see you all, it's amazing what a trained person can see that we cannot,
Hope this helps,
http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers
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I'm probably one of those blunt replies- but I think we're all trying to make sure the puppy isn't victimised. It's NOT the puppy, it's NOT the breed...so yes I would encourage you to think 'So what is it?' and have a fresh approach.
Two things to consider to sort-of depersonalise the problem: many rescues will not rehome dogs or puppies with young children. They are very experienced in getting a good outcome so we must assume they have valid reasons for this policy and understand the many possible pitfalls.
Bristol University' Vet Science department have done wonderful work on understanding dog bites. Basically their finding is it's not the dog it's the situation. Seems there's no such thing as a biter or a non-biter, just a series of events that cause a dog to bite. I'd really encourage anyone to get to grips with their findings because they have been an eye-opener to me after decades of ownership and rescue work. The link I've put in is a good basic guide to recognising fear.
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/vetscience/services/behaviour-clinic/dogbehaviouralsigns/behaviouralsigns3.html
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I think everyone who comes on here clearly loves their dog or they would not bother trying to find solutions to problems . I think some of posts on here are too blunt and contain some helpful info but tone is too harsh. This person just wants their kids to be safe and a happy puppy. It's possible to share your experience and wisdom without having to make feel someone else feel bad. Really hope this situation gets resolved ASAP for everyone :D
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I think everyone who comes on here clearly loves their dog or they would not bother trying to find solutions to problems . I think some of posts on here are too blunt and contain some helpful info but tone is too harsh. This person just wants their kids to be safe and a happy puppy. It's possible to share your experience and wisdom without having to make feel someone else feel bad. Really hope this situation gets resolved ASAP for everyone :D
Well said!!! I absolutely agree!!!! Sometimes written remarks don't always come over as diplomatically as spoken ones but our aim should be to help and encourage, not demotivate, so perhaps a little more tact wouldn't come amiss now and again. ;)
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You've obviously been given a lot of advice here, and I can appreciate that you are currently in a stressful situation at home.
Before I start on any opinions of my own, I will explain our situation so you know where my opinions are coming from.
We have a Cocker Spaniel who is 8.5yrs... I also have a 5yr old and a nearly 4yr old with special needs. We have recently got a kitten.
Our Cocker was very much a Cocker who didn't like being handled - she hated being picked up, and still is not a dog who enoys cuddles/physical contact... she also doesn't trust children at all, due to some unfortunate experiences in her adolescence.
As my children grew from baby into toddlers and now young children, they were constantly reinforced not to approach or cuddle/stroke the dog without us being there with them. I do appreciate it was easier, as Honey was not a Puppy getting in to everything, but a mature dog who knew where her safe spaces were, and trusted us to manage any uncomfortable situations. We had (and still do have) some close calls - yes, a toddler fell on Honey's bed when she was in it, and yes, she growled and snapped - but as a pup we had worked very hard on bite inhibition and, for all her grumpiness (she is a very highly strung dog, and prone to guarding), she has excellent self-control. Both children have an excellent appreciation of respecting Honey's space and as we have always respected her growls (as in, seen them as a good warning that something is amiss and taught Honey ways to get out of the situation), Honey trusts us to keep her safe. It's hard work, but manageable.
Having had this experience, I can totally understand why many breeders do not like to home puppies with young children.
As far as advice goes - I would echo the advice of others to get a behaviourist who will come out and see you pup before making any judgements, and who uses only positive methods (and doesn't start spouting dominance). They can help you organise your house in a way that will give Betty the opportunity to relax away from the children etc, and assess whether the biting/growling is play, anxiety or guarding (and advice you appropriately on how to manage it). I would also stop *all* of you picking her up - if she needs to be moved, lure her away using a treat.... many pups of this age develop a dislike to being physically moved (understandably) and it is much better to use non-confrontational approaches to reinforce boundaries. Also, it will be easier to reinforce to your children not to pick her up if they don't see others doing it... ;)
I wouldn't let unfamiliar children pet her.... if you are anxious, she will pick up on this and be *more* likely to react to a child as she will sense you are worried and think it is the approach of the child that is worrying you... this is how reactive behaviour can spiral. She has illustrated that she's not always confident about small children - if you take appropriate steps to ensure that she feels safe, that means she doesn't have to react (the only way she has to tell you she is uncomfortable is through growling or nipping, especially if she is on a lead as she would be in the shops).
Our kitten is now 5 months old and I naively assumed that 2 children used to respecting the space of a dog would understand not to harrass a cat.... but this was not correct, and I had to go back to basics with both children (but especially the youngest) about not picking her up and allowing her to rest etc... But we have got there... Yes, the children have been scratched - but this does not mean our kitten is aggressive (and neither does it mean that the children are badly managed!!!).
Managing a dog with young children can be hard work.
Managing a puppy can be hard work.
It *is* manageable, and nothing you have said sparks any major concern for me about Betty's temperament... she's a puppy in a busy situation. But, unless she is listened to and steps taken to stop putting her in situations she doesn't feel safe in, these things really could develop into a longer term behaviour problem. In short, you (and everyone around her) need to ensure Betty isn't put in positions where she may feel unsafe and respond by growling/biting, and you can then gradually desensitise her to those situations so that they become less stressful for her. However, she is still a puppy and will still bite/growl in play for a while to come - this is an important developmental stage for puppies and not something that can safely be cut short, as this is how they learn bite inhibition - the behaviourist should be able to explain some games/training exercises that can help reinforce this, though... :)
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Excellent advice as ever from Claire (Karma) :D
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I agree, excellent advice Karma. Good luck ETavernor, I feel for u, with two kids myself I know how challenging it can managing kids and pups. My youngest dog Charlie was the devil and far worse than any other dog I've had. I even considered rehoming him and I remember the stress of it too well. Now, on he is the most gentlest and loving of all of them.
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Hope you find a way to manage the situation, Karma has given some great advice there. My pup is 5 months and my kids are 2 and 4 so I know how difficult it can be! Depending on the layout of your house baby gates may help to keep everyone safe and happy. We have a baby gate across the lounge and clover is not allowed in there during the day- this means that Clover doesn't choke on Lego, the kids don't get upset at her running off with toys and importantly that I can supervise all the interaction. It also manages how 'contaminated ' the lounge gets as my 4 year old is allergic. This also means that all daytime naps are in the crate or on a soft mat just outside the gate across the door where she can be nearer to the action, so she can't get fallen on or disturbed so easily. An earlier poster mentioned the feeling of disappointment at having to manage the dog like this when you envisaged the pup being fully around the kids, but it won't necessarily always be this way, once pup and kids have grown, matured and learnt each other's ways then everything can hopefully get a bit more relaxed. Best of luck 😃
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Just in case my last post sounded a bit smug, quite a lot of my day sounds like this 'muuum clovers got my teeedddddyyyy!' 'Muuuum clover got in!' 'Shut the gate!' 'Shut the gate!' Shut the gate!' ' ' 'Clover leave it' ' muum I couldn't open the gate and I've wet myself!' Oh well, we try!
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Just in case my last post sounded a bit smug, quite a lot of my day sounds like this 'muuum clovers got my teeedddddyyyy!' 'Muuuum clover got in!' 'Shut the gate!' 'Shut the gate!' Shut the gate!' ' ' 'Clover leave it' ' muum I couldn't open the gate and I've wet myself!' Oh well, we try!
Sorry to laugh but that has just had me in complete hysterics :rofl1: :rofl1:
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:005: Lovely! and sounds very familiar, - although, for me, a long time ago!!!!
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Ah, yes - that was like a trip down memory lane
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Thank you blue Paula and Bizzylizzy for your support.
Thank you karma for your good advice.
Crazyclover your post made me chuckle. Your house sounds very much like mine!