CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: mark1 on January 19, 2010, 03:02:24 PM
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I'm sure that someone can clear this one up for us. Our show Cocker puppy has a G G Grandad that is FT.CH. First of all does that make him a working Cocker and is that ok to have that in her pedigree. The breeder didn't put the F.T.CH in her pedigree but we came across him on another pedigree. Just wondering if this is dodgy or not.
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Who says show breds can't be FTCHs? ;) :005:
Granddad may be a working cocker, you'd have to look at his pedigree to know for sure.
Don't really know if it's dodgy or not without knowing the reasons why a worker and show bred were crossed :dunno:
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could just be a show bred that someone has trained their ass off with to get FTCH??
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I'm sure that someone can clear this one up for us. Our show Cocker puppy has a G G Grandad that is FT.CH. First of all does that make him a working Cocker and is that ok to have that in her pedigree. The breeder didn't put the F.T.CH in her pedigree but we came across him on another pedigree. Just wondering if this is dodgy or not.
Yes a dog with the title of FTCH would be a working Cocker - there are no show-bred FT CHs and are never likely to be in this country anyway. It means your puppy is mixed show and working breeding (but probably more show than working if there is just the one working ancestor). It's not necessarily dodgy as such although generally those who breed seriously for show or working purposes will not mix the lines together so it tends to be those breeding for the pet market who will mix both types together (and some may not even be aware they are doing this if they don't have an in depth knowledge of pedigrees)
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Thanks for that, helpful. I think there is more than just one working dog in there the more we check the pedigree. We did ask the breeder the question, as Poppys dad looked like he had working in him but we were assured that she was 'full' show type. Not that it makes any difference to how we feel about Poppy as we love her to bits but we just feel a bit let down.
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Thanks for that, helpful. I think there is more than just one working dog in there the more we check the pedigree. We did ask the breeder the question, as Poppys dad looked like he had working in him but we were assured that she was 'full' show type. Not that it makes any difference to how we feel about Poppy as we love her to bits but we just feel a bit let down.
I can understand that - puppy buyers have the right to expect their breeders to be knowledgable and truthful about the dogs they are breeding from but sadly some are not (and some may have good intentions but just not realise the difference between the two types). Poppy is lovely though and if she's part working, she may well have a more easily manageable coat than a show Cocker (looking on the bright side :D)
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Why don't you post her pedigree on here? then us with workers can tell you who's who.
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Why don't you post her pedigree on here? then us with workers can tell you who's who.
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Will do, haven't recieved the pedigree yet we just know the parents and have done the research from that. As soon as we get it I'll put it on. Thanks.
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Coco is a show cocker but has a couple of Workers in her pedigree too. :-\ She came from a commercial breeder though (not a puppy farm but if I knew then what I do now...........) and I always understood that was how they got liver show cockers. :dunno: Sadly in Coco's case it has not meant her coat is any more manageable but she is probably as "active" as a working type ::) :005:
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Thanks for cheering me up on that one :005:
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Thanks for cheering me up on that one :005:
Yeah, sorry about that :005: I think there are quite a few show types with some working in their pedigree. I know Annette's Buddy is another one ;)
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Hi Mark
I had the same surprise when researching Purdey's pedigree and found several working dogs in there, which explains why she is so energetic! Like you say, it doesnt make us love her any less, but do feel a teeny bit cheated by the breeder! Oh to have known then what I know now!
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Roxys mum is a working type and her dad a show type. She looks like a show type unless you put her next to one and then you can see the difference!! She has much less coat than a show type, which I'm glad about! She is also a little crazy which I blame on her working side!!
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I am sure there is someone more knowledgeable than me who may tell you if I am right or wrong but I have always thought that the show cocker originated from the working cocker. So, if you think about it, all show cockers have worker in their pedigree if you look back far enough :P
I am talking many,many,many generations back, of course.
Perhaps your breeder didn't feel they needed to inform you as predominantly the pedigree is show type and the puppy displays all the characteristics of a show cocker.
To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
In theory, there is no reason why working type and show type cocker can not be bred together as they can both be K.C. registered cocker spaniels. It is just that serious breeders tend to keep the two types separate. :D
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I am sure there is someone more knowledgeable than me who may tell you if I am right or wrong but I have always thought that the show cocker originated from the working cocker. So, if you think about it, all show cockers have worker in their pedigree if you look back far enough :P
I am talking many,many,many generations back, of course.
Perhaps your breeder didn't feel they needed to inform you as predominantly the pedigree is show type and the puppy displays all the characteristics of a show cocker.
To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
In theory, there is no reason why working type and show type cocker can not be bred together as they can both be K.C. registered cocker spaniels. It is just that serious breeders tend to keep the two types separate. :D
As far as I am aware nearly all cocker lines will descend from a handfull of dogs that were the foundation of the breed, By what I can gather from these books a small dog called Obo is seen as the cornerstone of the breed, both working and show. But looking at pictures of him he does look very working. I would guess Jane Will probably shed more light onto the history of breed. The breed standard was originally set out by working kennels of old, I do wonder though if they had actually intended for the 2 distinct camps we have now from that breed standard they chartered all those years ago but I guess that is something we will never know now.
As far as cocker's with both sides in their pedigrees go, Generally it is frowned upon and you just have to looking through any of the many threads on breeding to find out what peoples thoughts are from many sides. In years gone by we as a society just wanted dogs for either showing, working (gundog work) or just a pet (in general). We now seem to be demanding from our dogs as we seek more recreational and increasingly competitive sports to do with our dogs such as agility, flyball, canix, working trials and no doubt other sports. Agility for example is growing at a very fast rate and its becoming very competitive especially at top level. competitors are now seeking dogs of small stature to compete in the easier small grade, thus the smaller bred cocker which is actually smaller than most cocker's are very sought after especially from a cocker that has working drive in him/her but ideally not to be too scent driven. So who knows we can have cocker's being bred for (sporting) ability too in years to come but without the hunting drive of the typical worker yet more athletic than the typical show cocker. This of course is not myself saying it should or shouldn't happen I am just observing what seems to be happening now. ;) Such is the demands of society. :blink:
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Charlie has working dogs in his pedigree too, traced back to commercial breeders who I would have thought did it for colour (he's blue roan and tan). He looks different to other show types and his coat is a lot thinner, he's also quite laid back ;).
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I own two brothers who were sold to us as show types. When we looked at their 5 gen pedigree, we too found that a quarter of their pedigree was working. Now people are surprised when we say they are related. One is a blue roan show pup and the other has quite obviously inherited all the working genes and is a liver roan working cocker. It's weird! ph34r
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To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
But many pet owners would not necessarily want a pet Cocker with the drive & stamina of a FT bred dog - it's horses for courses and if a pet puppy buyer has decided that a show-type dog would suit them best, it can matter quite a lot if that puppy turns out to be not what they thought they were getting.
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Ginny is a working cocker; are shows less 'mad' ?
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Ginny is a working cocker; are shows less 'mad' ?
mad in a different way i think!!
i have always wondered whether there is some working in henry - is muzzle is more angular than a lot of show types, but then he's def got the show ears and hair. if they are workers then they werent FT Ch grade!!
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To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
actually that is true of most working cockers - to be a FT CH takes much more than that, and the dog must be incredibly driven to achieve that level, and they can easily turn a lack of stimulation into frustration. That is why I don't think a dog with field trial potential makes a good pet to a non-working home.
Most 'average' working cockers will adapt well to a pet environment but a field trial dog needs the stimulation and environment of the field.
I think the OP was more concerned as he hasn't quite got what he was told he had, not that he'll love his pup any less - but when you're sold a show cocker you expect it to be just that (and when I'm sold a working cocker I would expect to be exactly what it says on the tin too).
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Ginny is a working cocker; are shows less 'mad' ?
mad in a different way i think!!
i have always wondered whether there is some working in henry - is muzzle is more angular than a lot of show types, but then he's def got the show ears and hair. if they are workers then they werent FT Ch grade!!
Louie has a very "strong" muzzle but looking back at his ancestors, it's every bit the head of the show side of his lines - he's just like his grandad, He has a slightly lighter coat of the working lines and genetically tuned to want to work the ground far more than the other three, he has to run EVERYWHERE when we're out and doesn't have an off button in the woods. However he's probably the quietest one at home. He is 1/4 worker
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To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
actually that is true of most working cockers - to be a FT CH takes much more than that, and the dog must be incredibly driven to achieve that level, and they can easily turn a lack of stimulation into frustration. That is why I don't think a dog with field trial potential makes a good pet to a non-working home.
Most 'average' working cockers will adapt well to a pet environment but a field trial dog needs the stimulation and environment of the field.
I think the OP was more concerned as he hasn't quite got what he was told he had, not that he'll love his pup any less - but when you're sold a show cocker you expect it to be just that (and when I'm sold a working cocker I would expect to be exactly what it says on the tin too).
That is exactly what I mean. Poppy is ours now forever come what may but I do feel the breeder was less than honest with us as we are finding more working types in the fathers side and I can't believe that they didn't know that, I'm hardly Sherlock Holmes. It's interesting that a litter they have online shows the pedigree but has ommitted the FT.CH from it :huh:
I also have nothing at all against working cockers but decided a show type suited us better. It wouldn't have been so bad if they had fessed up when we asked the question but they emailed back to say Poppy is a 'pure' show cocker
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I agree - it's not that the pup is a show/working cross but omitting mentioning that in my eyes is a little dishonest ;)
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I agree - it's not that the pup is a show/working cross but omitting mentioning that in my eyes is a little dishonest ;)
Absolutely & if it's the litter I've seen advertised on a site I use, then both parents look to be half show/half working & I'm sure the breeder cannot have been unaware of this...
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It is a shame that the breeder wasn't up front regarding the litter pedigree.
It is interesting though - when does a dog become pure show cocker - how many generations must be pure before they can be called a pure show cocker. For my two the FTCH is 4 generations back. I know that labradors (black) have Gordon Setters crossed into their lines many generations ago (very long time ago) and on very rare occassions you can find a black labs with tan eyebrows.
Both Roly & Misha's GGG grandparent on their dad's side is a FTCH, though they are both show cockers in looks -- best of both worlds really for me, both have cracking personalities and not any health problems, both very robust and have been very good to train (I'm biaised I know ;)). I got them both as pets and for agility and my main concern was that they were strong and healthy. I met both mum & dad for both dogs who were also lovely dogs, very friendly and very sweet and all the parents were health tested. Since I wasn't going to be going into the world of showing the FTCH hasn't mattered to me and the dogs have turned out great - I would go back to the same breeder in a minute if I was after a puppy.
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When we got Brackens 5 generation pedigree we realised she had a couple of FTCH's in their as well. Her coat was always very fine until she was spayed and it has now filled out a bit more. SHe is also a completely lazy little so and so and is happy sleeping in her basket rather than running around like a loon. When we go out she will always stay closer and run less than our cross-breed so I don't think she got any of the working drive from those relatives.
I had a discussion via email recently with her breeder and when I mentioned her being part working cocker she told me she wasn't, when i politely asked what FTCH meant she hasn't responded since :shades: Again bracken is a liver roan from a commercial breeder and I'm sure the cross of working and show cockers was probably done for colour...
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So when does a dog become pure show cocker - how many generations must be pure before they can be called a pure show cocker.
Not sure there's a definite answer to this if you're looking for someone to tell you it's x number of generations :-\ We can all trace our dog's pedigrees back to the orginal Cockers eventually whether our dogs are show or working type but I suppose you'd have to say the divide started back in the 1950's or thereabouts so we're talking about many generations of pedigrees which can be said to be either one type or the other. The point is that the two types have some differing characteristics and mixing the two can be a lottery as to which characteristics get passed on to the resulting puppies - you might get pups which look more show-type than working but may have stronger working/hunting instincts than the new owners might have been expecting or know how to handle. Fair enough if the puppy buyers are told about their puppy's ancestry up front but not so fair if they are not told or worse lied to.
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I have to admit I would of been furious if I bought a working cocker and it turned out to be a show x working ph34r
I bought dogs to work and while im not saying a show cocker can not be trained to a high level or be driven/energetic there is a reason we have two types ;)
Same if I wanted a show and got a show x working.
Because they are both "cocker spaniels" and only different strains is there no comeback under the trade descriptions act :huh:
Because if there was I was be complaining, might make breeders who dont know/dont care about the difference and mixing the two strains without being honest about it through ignorance or lies think twice :police:
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I have to admit I would of been furious if I bought a working cocker and it turned out to be a show x working ph34r
Ditto but there is also a big element of caveat emptor here too, I wouldn't buy a puppy without having thoroughly examined its pedigree first, the pedigree/lines are the basis of my decision to even go and view a litter or a puppy because I want to know what I'm getting. I know exact pedigree lines don't matter to everyone but I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to know exactly what makes up a puppy they are thinking about buying and if buyers were more demanding in this way it would give breeders a lot less room for being ignorant or dishonest about what they are producing.
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I have to admit I would of been furious if I bought a working cocker and it turned out to be a show x working ph34r
Ditto but there is also a big element of caveat emptor here too, I wouldn't buy a puppy without having thoroughly examined its pedigree first, the pedigree/lines are the basis of my decision to even go and view a litter or a puppy because I want to know what I'm getting. I know exact pedigree lines don't matter to everyone but I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to know exactly what makes up a puppy they are thinking about buying and if buyers were more demanding in this way it would give breeders a lot less room for being ignorant or dishonest about what they are producing.
I agree with you here.... but I also think that if you're relatively new to cockers and the pedigree doesn't throw up a FT CH in the first few generations (but could have some working affixes that we would perhaps recognise but that may not be so obvious to non-working cocker fans) than it can be quite tricky and you do go a lot by trust which is often mistakenly misplaced :-\
Hindsight is a wonderful thing...and I hope that threads like this encourage people to delve a bit deeper when buying puppies :D
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We were shown a 3 generation pedrigree which was all show. But we knew very little when we got Bracken. Wouldn't change my little lady for the world though ;) We did more right with Bracken than we did with Jasmine, so hopefully if we get a puppy again we will be even more knowledgeable....
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I agree with you here.... but I also think that if you're relatively new to cockers and the pedigree doesn't throw up a FT CH in the first few generations (but could have some working affixes that we would perhaps recognise but that may not be so obvious to non-working cocker fans) than it can be quite tricky and you do go a lot by trust which is often mistakenly misplaced :-\
Hindsight is a wonderful thing...and I hope that threads like this encourage people to delve a bit deeper when buying puppies :D
Absolutely, most people wouldn't have a clue and if the FT CH is omitted altogether you would be even more ignorant. This does highlight the value of this forum as it is sites like this that will educate and help people. In all honesty I think most puppy buyers when contacting a breeder through the KC think it's job done.
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I agree with you here.... but I also think that if you're relatively new to cockers and the pedigree doesn't throw up a FT CH in the first few generations (but could have some working affixes that we would perhaps recognise but that may not be so obvious to non-working cocker fans) than it can be quite tricky and you do go a lot by trust which is often mistakenly misplaced :-\
Hindsight is a wonderful thing...and I hope that threads like this encourage people to delve a bit deeper when buying puppies :D
Absolutely, most people wouldn't have a clue and if the FT CH is omitted altogether you would be even more ignorant. This does highlight the value of this forum as it is sites like this that will educate and help people. In all honesty I think must puppy buyers when contacting a breeder through the KC think it's job done.
That's pretty much my point - that buyer education and responsibility is equally important :D If buyers took a pedigree and did even a simple Google search on the lines and names they could find out an awful lot of information on the dogs. I know it can be a minefield though for people who are new to dogs as they think that they can trust all breeders when all breeders are unfortunately far from equal. This site and others like it are certainly an invaluable resource.
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I've often thought we could have a sticky about how to read pedigrees :blink:.
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As I have mentioned on previous posts, I was an 'ignorant' pet buyer. >:(
I knew I wanted a cocker spaniel and thought I would do it the 'right' way - I looked on the Kennel Club site and saw a list of breeders with puppies. I rang up the most local and he said they had been bred for their brains ;) This meant nothing to me as I only wanted a pet and I ,the ignorant one, ;) just thought they would be beautiful and have brains.
I ended up with two working cockers when originally I had meant to have show cockers :o
I think of my girls as my fortunate 'mistake' but at least the breeder didn't claim they were show (or working).
Whilst I am NOT suggesting two separate registrations for the two separate types, I do think there will continue to be confusion for some pet buyers when at the K.C. there is just one cocker spaniel. :o
I don't know what the answer is :-\
Over to you, much more experienced COLers . What do you suggest?
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Following on from my op we have now received the pedigree for Poppy. Below are names of Poppys, dads side and I 'd appreciate any knowledge those with an interest in workers have. We have done some research and it looks like a working line.
ta ;)
Little white dudley
Macduff Of Rayside
Amber Glow Princess
Sh Ch Stoorie Of Laighpark (we think this should read FT. CH)
Kate Of Konisber
Whitecourt Rolo
Clevedale Greenshank
Bunter Of Bruach
Brockhill Meg
Blackie Of Clevedale
Nell Of Oxenber
Wernfrwwd Adamson
White Walls soft Centre
Bryn Of Clevedale
Caper Of Clevedale
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jet has a Wernfrwwd in her pedigree ;)
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Wernfrwwd in a very famous gundog kennel that have been producing very good working cockers for years.
You are right about Storie of Laighpark - he is/was a Field Trials Champion.
Clevedale is also a working line.
If you look on SkyeSue posting 'Lines', her dog has a Blackie of Clevedale too ;)
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Sh Ch Stoorie Of Laighpark (we think this should read FT. CH)
Whitecourt Rolo
Clevedale Greenshank
Bunter Of Bruach
Brockhill Meg
Blackie Of Clevedale
Wernfrwwd Adamson
White Walls soft Centre
Bryn Of Clevedale
Caper Of Clevedale
These are all working Cockers, I've removed the ones I'm not sure about. Stoorie of Laighpark was a FTCH and it's Whitecourt Rollo with 2 ls.
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Sh Ch Stoorie Of Laighpark (we think this should read FT. CH)
Whitecourt Rolo
Clevedale Greenshank
Bunter Of Bruach
Brockhill Meg
Blackie Of Clevedale
Wernfrwwd Adamson
White Walls soft Centre
Bryn Of Clevedale
Caper Of Clevedale
These are all working Cockers, I've removed the ones I'm not sure about. Stoorie of Laighpark was a FTCH and it's Whitecourt Rollo with 2 ls.
Thanks. It seems our breeder has a problem with grammar as well as the truth ;)
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What a dishonest breeder :-\ Especially changing the FT CH to SH CH!! :o Tinkering with pedigrees like that is just not on! >:(
On the plus side, there's some very decent working cockers in that list, many of which have produced some very talented offspring in the field trialling and shooting world :D. So your little cocker has some top quality working blood in her :luv: (of course I'm not biased about working cockers or the lines mentioned ::) ;) )
Good luck with your little'un :-*
Mary xxx
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What a dishonest breeder :-\ Especially changing the FT CH to SH CH!! :o Tinkering with pedigrees like that is just not on! >:(
On the plus side, there's some very decent working cockers in that list, many of which have produced some very talented offspring in the field trialling and shooting world :D. So your little cocker has some top quality working blood in her :luv: (of course I'm not biased about working cockers or the lines mentioned ::) ;) )
Good luck with your little'un :-*
Mary xxx
she is beautiful and here to stay, we really don't care about her ancestors just hurt we've been lied to as we trusted the breeder. The silly thing is that we wouldn't have cared, I'm quite proud that shes an eighth worker :blink:
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she is beautiful and here to stay, we really don't care about her ancestors just hurt we've been lied to as we trusted the breeder. The silly thing is that we wouldn't have cared, I'm quite proud that shes an eighth worker :blink:
why, you wanted a show cocker :huh:
as I said I would be seriously annoyed if one of mine had show in them, I wouldnt of bought a pup with any show in its breeding.
I hope now you can understand why breeders need a good knowledge of the breed, the lines they want to use, health tests required etc :shades:
I did notice this litter is not tested for FN nor hip scored, also no mention of yearly eye tests :police:
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she is beautiful and here to stay, we really don't care about her ancestors just hurt we've been lied to as we trusted the breeder. The silly thing is that we wouldn't have cared, I'm quite proud that shes an eighth worker :blink:
why, you wanted a show cocker :huh:
as I said I would be seriously annoyed if one of mine had show in them, I wouldnt of bought a pup with any show in its breeding.
I hope now you can understand why breeders need a good knowledge of the breed, the lines they want to use, health tests required etc :shades:
I did notice this litter is not tested for FN nor hip scored, also no mention of yearly eye tests :police:
To answer your question is we wanted a show type because we felt it suited our situation, nothing against working cockers but that was our choice
I think I've always understood the need for breeders to have good knowledge of the breed and I think you probably have misunderstood my previous posts :huh:
My point on this thread was simply to get some information regarding the line in our puppies pedigree not really to discuss the litter per se in an open forum as I am trying to be careful not to identify the breeder >:(
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she is beautiful and here to stay, we really don't care about her ancestors just hurt we've been lied to as we trusted the breeder. The silly thing is that we wouldn't have cared, I'm quite proud that shes an eighth worker :blink:
That's the spirit! :D Now that you have your pup it's important to make sure her life is as happy and healthy as possible :-* Because she has some working blood in her you might find that she will need slightly more mental and physical stimulation than your show bred cocker ;) She might also be a little more interested in furry and feathered animals out on walks etc... so you might want to go more down the root of using a stop whistle for training etc.. (I'm rambling!! :lol2: )
Anyway, enjoy your pup and it's great that you've done some research into her pedigree to find out what type of dogs are in her lineage so that you know what you're dealing with! (worker pups can have the devil in them sometimes :lol: )
If the sire and dam haven't been health tested then that's a bit of a worry :-\ The best thing you can do now is keep your fingers and toes crossed and hope that she's a lucky pup and won't develop FN or go blind early with glaucoma.
I think that you should try and inform the breeder you got your pup from about the responsibilities of choosing suitable pedigree lines and also about the health tests that should be carried out on all breeding dogs. :police:
Unfortunately there are still a lot of very uninformed breeders out there, so I think that it is a good thing for puppy buyers to give feedback about the standards a buyer expects ;)
Have a fab time with your pup, I just had a look at a photo of her and she's scrumptious :luv: (you can post her to me anytime you want :shades: :luv:)
Mary xxx
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Thank you. Some really good points made there and put across in really nice way. It's early days but she is a real character and very smart, she's almost clean (11 weeks) and responding really well to the clicker. The dad is eye tested and we will get her tested yearly. We live on the edge of a nature reserve so if shes keen on fur and feather she will have lots of opportunity. I have had working dogs in the past (Russells and whippets) so have no probs with working dogs just feel I'm past they're energy now :005: I really feel she'll be fine and she seems calmer than Molly if anything...maybe she's saving it up :lol:
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Mark, just because your pup has some working blood in her, it doesn't mean that she need terrorize the local furries and feathers
My two girls have all working blood in them :D all close relatives either trial or work. We back onto a canal and since they were old enough to go along it, they have seen ducks, moorhens, swans etc at very close quarters :005: They look but don't pursue ;) as they were taught from a young age. :D
I have found their working blood makes them very biddable and a pleasure to live with. :D Hope you enjoy Poppy :D
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It absolutely is frustrating to discover you've been misled... >:(
When we got Honey, we didn't know that there were working and show cockers, we just thought a cocker spaniel was a cocker spaniel... ph34r The breeder didn't mention anything about working cockers, though at one point she did say that she could have got them docked, as the sire's owner had a gun license...
But to actually deliberately mislead you is far worse - changing the FT CH to SH CH is actually fraud... >:(
Honey is 3/4 Working, and to be honest, I wouldn't change her for the world. :luv: She is very clever, so we do constantly have to think about ways in which she can use her brain - we do a lot of clicker training and we do obedience and agility lessons. But I think one of the very simple things we did from an early age was to put her biscuit in something (loo roll inner or envelope) so she had to work to get it out... ;)
With any dog, good recall is very important, but I think more so with a cocker with working blood, as if recall isn't fully in-grained they could easily go deaf when they get a good scent to follow. I don't use a whistle with Honey, but we did work very hard at recall, and I can pretty much recall her from anything... :luv:
And while Honey could go all day when out and about, she is very chilled in the house... ;)
Enjoy Poppy :luv:
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Thanks for the encouraging words both. :blink:
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she is beautiful and here to stay, we really don't care about her ancestors just hurt we've been lied to as we trusted the breeder. The silly thing is that we wouldn't have cared, I'm quite proud that shes an eighth worker :blink:
why, you wanted a show cocker :huh:
as I said I would be seriously annoyed if one of mine had show in them, I wouldnt of bought a pup with any show in its breeding.
I hope now you can understand why breeders need a good knowledge of the breed, the lines they want to use, health tests required etc :shades:
I did notice this litter is not tested for FN nor hip scored, also no mention of yearly eye tests :police:
To answer your question is we wanted a show type because we felt it suited our situation, nothing against working cockers but that was our choice
Thats not what I meant :shades:
I am a huge believer in that certain dogs suit certain people and the biggest thing when someone is choosing a dog is that they choose the right breed/strain for them ;)
I think its great that you looked at your situation and decided a show cocker was best, that to me really is what its all about :D
My question was about why you would be proud or wouldnt of cared about the working lines in her :huh:
Im actually annoyed on your behalf (if that makes sense) because you knew what type of home you could provide and what type of dog you wanted and were sold something different >:(
Of course Poppy could inherite all the show traits and you could have the dog you wanted, but she could also inherite a lot of the worker traits and you end up having to make lots of changes to meet her needs (which im not saying you wouldnt do) but why should you have to.
I just feel like breeders like this play on the fact that people will fall for their pup and by the time they find out its not what they actually wanted/sick etc they wont return it as its become part of their family. The breeders gets off with no repercussions on them and breeds more.
Although its great that you are willing to commit to Poppy and meet her needs no matter weather they are that of a show cocker or that of a working cocker others wont be :-\
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The breeders gets off with no repercussions on them and breeds more.
Although its great that you are willing to commit to Poppy and meet her needs no matter weather they are that of a show cocker or that of a working cocker others wont be :-\
This is where buyer feedback to the breeder comes into its own ;)
I expect to have feedback from the owners of the pups I've bred, in fact if I don't hear anything from the new owners then I contact them to get an update on how the pup is health wise and also how they're coping with the new addition. I've covered myself by knowing the pedigree behind my dogs very thoroughly and I do the health tests, however I still want to know if anything has gone wrong with a pup or if the new owners aren't coping well because I'm in a good position to offer help :blink:
If I ever buy a pup that isn't what the breeder told me it was then I'd be on the phone asking some questions :police: (but then I'm that sort of person! :lol: )
Good luck with your pup :luv:
Mary xxx
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The breeders gets off with no repercussions on them and breeds more.
Although its great that you are willing to commit to Poppy and meet her needs no matter weather they are that of a show cocker or that of a working cocker others wont be :-\
This is where buyer feedback to the breeder comes into its own ;)
I expect to have feedback from the owners of the pups I've bred, in fact if I don't hear anything from the new owners then I contact them to get an update on how the pup is health wise and also how they're coping with the new addition. I've covered myself by knowing the pedigree behind my dogs very thoroughly and I do the health tests, however I still want to know if anything has gone wrong with a pup or if the new owners aren't coping well because I'm in a good position to offer help :blink:
If I ever buy a pup that isn't what the breeder told me it was then I'd be on the phone asking some questions :police: (but then I'm that sort of person! :lol: )
Good luck with your pup :luv:
Mary xxx
yep but your a good breeder :luv:
unfortunaltey the majority are not :'(
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I agree that the majority are not good breeders :-\
But Mark's breeder might just be ignorant of the responsibilities needed for good breeding. So I don't think it would hurt for this breeder to be informed of their "mistakes" so that hopefully in the future any pups they breed will be bred more responsibly IYSWIM :blink:
They chose a stud dog that had been BVA eye tested, which could indicate that they have at least a basic grasp of what's needed for breeding a litter properly. So maybe a bit more education is needed! :shades: On the other hand they could just be bad breeders :-\
Mary xxx
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We spoke to the breeder and to be fair to her, the reaction was very good. She said that she had bought the stud dog from a trusted breeder and had checked the pedigree to make sure his lines were compatible with the bitches but had looked no deeper, her mistake, and that SH CH was on his pedigree at that point.
She has withdrawn him from stud, informed all other people who bought a puppy and offered to take Poppy back, give us a full refund and cover our expenses. Obviously that was never going to happen as Poppy is part of the family now but we are glad that we gave the breeder some feedback and it was certainly more educated feedback thanks to the input from contributors of this thread i ;) Cheers
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Well done Mark :D :clapping: I'm so glad that she took your feedback on board, and has reacted in a responsible way :blink: Hopefully she'll do her homework even better before she plans another litter. Did you mention health testing to her? ie: Optigen and FN. If not, I would just point her in that direction if you can, or failing that tell her about cockersonline so that we can give her some more info and help if she wants it!! :blink:
Mary xxx
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I know this is a really old post but wondered if Mark got his dog anywhere near Nottinghamshire. We had a similar situation with our dog who shares many of the same dogs as you list in your pedigree. He has turned out to be the most amazing dog ever, but we were also misled!
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Mark is no longer a member of this forum but from what I remember, yes the breeder was from that area so you did probably buy from the same place. I'll close this now but can tell you the breeder's kennel name if you want to send me a PM.