CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Davyboy16 on October 31, 2012, 11:03:33 AM
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Hi,
We are on the search for our new puppy. We lost Jasper last year, 10 years ago when we got him I can't remember anything about health testing/screening. My question is do both mum and dad have to be clear of PRA and FN for the puppy to be clear or just one parent? :huh: I understand it is better if both are clear but I seem to be seeing lots of breeders that state mum or dad are clear.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Craig.
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Always better to go with both clear parents. If one is clear and the other is affected but not showing symptoms then the pups could be carriers which can then be passed to the next generation.
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Also make sure that they say DNA CLEAR not just DNA TESTED! They can be DNA tested but that doesnt mean they are clear.
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Sorry I disagree a bit with some of the posts above ph34r As long as BOTH parents are DNA tested and one parent is clear/unaffected, none of the resulting progeny will ever be affected. Yes some may be carriers if one of the parents is a tested carrier but carrier status has no significance unless there is an intention to breed in the future (in such cases, good breeders will endorse registrations and make clear in their contracts the implications of possible carrier status and will of course carefully vet homes to ensure pups don't go to irresponsible breeders)
What I find more troubling is the amount of breeders who don't bother testing both parents - they use a tested or genetically clear stud dog so they can say their puppies won't develop prcd_PRA (which is only one of the eye conditions seen in Cockers) or FN but they can't be bothered to test their own bitches (or don't want to spend the money involved in testing) so are only doing half the job a responsible breeder should do. I'm afraid I could not recommend any breeder who hasn't tested both parents - there are plenty of breeders who do test all their dogs so why support the ones who don't?
Don't forget health testing isn't just about the DNA tests - Cockers used for breeding should also have been clinically eye tested including gonioscopy (for pre-disposition to Glaucoma) and ideally be hip scored too.
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Sorry I disagree a bit with some of the posts above ph34r As long as BOTH parents are DNA tested and one parent is clear/unaffected, none of the resulting progeny will ever be affected. Yes some may be carriers if one of the parents is a tested carrier but carrier status has no significance unless there is an intention to breed in the future (in such cases, good breeders will endorse registrations and make clear in their contracts the implications of possible carrier status and will of course carefully vet homes to ensure pups don't go to irresponsible breeders)
What I find more troubling is the amount of breeders who don't bother testing both parents - they use a tested or genetically clear stud dog so they can say their puppies won't develop prcd_PRA (which is only one of the eye conditions seen in Cockers) or FN but they can't be bothered to test their own bitches (or don't want to spend the money involved in testing) so are only doing half the job a responsible breeder should do. I'm afraid I could not recommend any breeder who hasn't tested both parents - there are plenty of breeders who do test all their dogs so why support the ones who don't?
Don't forget health testing isn't just about the DNA tests - Cockers used for breeding should also have been clinically eye tested including gonioscopy (for pre-disposition to Glaucoma) and ideally be hip scored too.
I agree Jane but KC endorsements do not always stop people from using their dogs for breeding. As far as I'm concerned Mum and Dad should be DNA tested clear without exception. If this was to happen the diseases would be wiped out completely (I live in La La land :005:)
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I agree Jane but KC endorsements do not always stop people from using their dogs for breeding. As far as I'm concerned Mum and Dad should be DNA tested clear without exception. If this was to happen the diseases would be wiped out completely (I live in La La land :005:)
Sorry to disagree again but to maintain genetic diversity and not lose dogs with something valuable to add to the gene pool, I firmly believe carriers of prcd_PRA can be carefully used in selective breeding programs (it's different to FN which is a fatal disease and also much rarer due to the effective controls already introduced back in the 80s) I think placing too much emphasis on only breeding from prcd_PRA clears has lead to a bit of complacency and perhaps a lack of vision for the bigger picture re breed health :-\ How many breeders do you know who don't eye test now because they think it's enough to DNA test, forgetting or not appreciating that there are other eye conditions out there, including forms of PRA for which there is no DNA test?
Touch wood, no puppy bred by us has ever been used for breeding without our permission - we encourage pet puppies to be neutered when old enough and never sell to other breeders unless they share our attitude to health testing and are known to us personally. We're lucky in that we don't breed many puppies and can be choosy about where they go which makes it easy to keep track of them. I dare say for volume breeders producing multiple litters a year it is all but impossible to be this selective about future homes or to monitor what happens to them in future so yes you might be right for those kind of breeders, they should not be breeding from carriers.
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mmmmmm I suppose if you have an exceptional dog which is a carrier then it could be used but as you say, very carefully. However this does not always happen so IMO both parents should be DNA tested clear and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree ;)
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and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree ;)
Yes we will ;) Incidentally do you eye test (including gonioscopy) your own dogs in addition to the DNA tests and do you ask the same for any studs you use? Just curious as Glaucoma is a far more painful condition than prcd_PRA so it seems a bit contradictory to demand clear DNA tests for both parents but not ask for the results of eye testing/gonioscopy testing :-\
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The breeder where im getting Bonnie from, eye tests all of her dogs as well as DNA testing both mum and dad :)
My point was just that to enquire the results of the DNA test if it doesnt already say so :005: ;)
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and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree ;)
Yes we will ;) Incidentally do you eye test (including gonioscopy) your own dogs in addition to the DNA tests and do you ask the same for any studs you use? Just curious as Glaucoma is a far more painful condition than prcd_PRA so it seems a bit contradictory to demand clear DNA tests for both parents but not ask for the results of eye testing/gonioscopy testing :-\
Yes do eye test annually as well although a bit confused about this as a friend of mine with a retriever had clear eye tests for 3 years and then not, so should that boy have been used for stud? Too late when the tests came back as not clear. He was then retired.
I only use my own stud dogs.....it's safer.
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What are your thoughts on herediatary clear?
Many are listed as herediatary clear but, as with humans, is enough known to assume that PRA and FN cannot skip generations? I remember one of the health seminars suggesting that testing should be done every 2nd generation which seems to make sense.
I was completely confused on the eye testing when we had Charlie done and wish we'd waited as Gonioscopy was not available at the show we were tested at!
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Not sure about hereditary clear as I know of one dog from a hereditary clear sire (allegedly)and untested dam who was affected It could be that there was an unplanned mating. Just awaiting test results.
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What are your thoughts on herediatary clear?
Many are listed as herediatary clear but, as with humans, is enough known to assume that PRA and FN cannot skip generations? I remember one of the health seminars suggesting that testing should be done every 2nd generation which seems to make sense.
I was completely confused on the eye testing when we had Charlie done and wish we'd waited as Gonioscopy was not available at the show we were tested at!
Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.
Both parents were prcd-pra tested clear. To me (& i'm certainly not discouraging breeders from testing) it does 'throw a spanner in the works' iyswim :-\
It was such a huge shock when she was diagnosed & i really wouldn't wish any dog to have this awful eye condition. :'( She sadly is not coping at all well. :'(
Imho i think every generation should be tested, although that it just my thoughts. :shades: :D
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I only use my own stud dogs.....it's safer.
Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC :-\ Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck :-\ You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly :lol2:
Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.
Nina's sad case shows why breeders need to keep up the annual eye testing & be aware that other eye conditions besides prcd_PRA are out there - I think you said the specialist says Nina probably has a different form of PRA not covered by the current DNA test so no amount of testing every generation would have revealed this. I do think that hereditary clears should be re-tested every 2 or 3 generations combined with annual clinical testing. Hopefully research will also continue into other forms of PRA and new tests developed in future.
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Sorry but I also agree with Jane, as long as both parents are tested and one of them clear, then there's not a problem.
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Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC :-\ Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck :-\ You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly :lol2:
I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts :blink:
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Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC :-\ Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck :-\ You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly :lol2:
I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts :blink:
Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers. I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.
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I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts :blink:
What tests did you do before breeding.
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Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers. I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.
I did not jump to any conclusion Lynne - I wanted to understand and still do why you're telling other people to only buy puppies with both parents tested clear but used an untested stud dog yourself. It was not that long ago - you must have known what questions to ask about testing and where to do some research (the KC database Holly2009 is so dismissive of me using is actually pretty useful as a first port of call) so you didn't need to use an untested dog. It's obviously a difficult and upsetting situation for you now but not really a reason to only use your own studs in future - you just need to do what every other serious breeder does, research, research and more research. Don't you agree?
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It just doesn't sit easy with me, just...seems a bit sneaky & underhand to post comments on an open forum prior to asking LynneB privately any details, suggesting genetic bottle necks etc to me that looks like it was aimed at Lynne (maybe it wasn't) as with suggesting the paper work never got through maybe that was a general comment and not insinuating anything? As admin I would of thought those kind of comments would of been done via pm.
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Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers. I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.
I did not jump to any conclusion Lynne - I wanted to understand and still do why you're telling other people to only buy puppies with both parents tested clear but used an untested stud dog yourself. It was not that long ago - you must have known what questions to ask about testing and where to do some research (the KC database Holly2009 is so dismissive of me using is actually pretty useful as a first port of call) so you didn't need to use an untested dog. It's obviously a difficult and upsetting situation for you now but not really a reason to only use your own studs in future - you just need to do what every other serious breeder does, research, research and more research. Don't you agree?
The reason I am saying that parents should be tested as I said earlier I made the mistake of using a dog whose test results were unknown (he had been tested but waited for approx 4 months for results) The studs sire was hereditary clear as I've already mentioned so no reason to suppose there was a problem.
I will use my own dogs because they are both AA and have excellent pedigrees.
Just wondering if you've ever made a mistake Jane.
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Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.
Nina's sad case shows why breeders need to keep up the annual eye testing & be aware that other eye conditions besides prcd_PRA are out there - I think you said the specialist says Nina probably has a different form of PRA not covered by the current DNA test so no amount of testing every generation would have revealed this. I do think that hereditary clears should be re-tested every 2 or 3 generations combined with annual clinical testing. Hopefully research will also continue into other forms of PRA and new tests developed in future.
Yes thats right Jane....Optigen have tested her bloods & so far todate have no matches with her type of GPRA :shades: Trust my bad luck (or Nina's rather) :'(
I still see adverts from breeders stating that their puppies will never go on to develop such eye conditions & feel this is incorrect, as i know other forms of it are out there. :shades:
Incidentally the CS Breed Health Co-Ordinator rang last week to ask for some more info etc about Nina & i was shocked to hear she had only had 6 Health Questionaire's completed. :'(
With such a huge number of this breed being born every year, along with being one of the most popular breeds, it seems such a very small number that actually have health problems recorded. It sadly appears that some breeders are reluctant to give more information about health problems with their dogs/puppies. :-\
I also heard recently that Golden Retrievers have now another form of PRA, which i understand they have named PRA 2 :shades:
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When we took Dylan for his annual eye screening, Nick Burden told us that there were a lot more 'types' of pra than what is currently tested for but it is something the KC eye scheme are looking into.
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I thought dogs were classified as either A (clear), B (carrier) or C (affected) sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but what is an "AA" result?
Also I totally agree with Jane in that you cannot discount carriers as narrowing the gene pool is a very dangerous path to follow for the breed. Maybe not for our generation or even the next but further down the track we could find our lovely breed suffering from similar problems affecting other breeds.
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I thought dogs were classified as either A (clear), B (carrier) or C (affected) sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but what is an "AA" result?
Also I totally agree with Jane in that you cannot discount carriers as narrowing the gene pool is a very dangerous path to follow for the breed. Maybe not for our generation or even the next but further down the track we could find our lovely breed suffering from similar problems affecting other breeds.
AA is clear of PRA and FN. One point I would like to make is if the gene pool is PRA carriers is that the right thing to do. Surely health is more important. "narrowing the gene pool" is such a sweeping statement. Are there not enough clear dogs to breed from that it would endanger the breed?
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There is nothing wrong with using carriers to clears as long as you endorse the puppies, that is something you should do anyway. I don't think FN carriers should be used unless you can test the puppies and neuter the carriers before going at about a year :-\.
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Thank you for explaining "AA" but stating carriers are somehow unhealthy dogs IMO is also a sweeping statement as yes they carry the gene but will never develop the disease. I know of some carriers that are of a far superior quality on a conformation basis than some clear dogs. Are you saying it's ok to breed dogs that are say upright in shoulder or have bad mouths as long as it's an "A".
What happens if in the future, like Goldie's, a new strain or form of PRA is identified and some dogs previously classified as "A" are "B" for the new strain and visa versa?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and on this subject everyone has one :005: but I think it's too simplistic to say only use "A" dogs as medicine / science is finding new problems all the time.
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I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.
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I did not say that carriers are unhealthy, I am looking at the "big picture". Carriers can pass on the gene therefore creating the "unhealthy stock". It is common sense that you would not breed a dog with conformation problems.
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I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.
Sorry, I am a bit confused here. If you have 3 carrier girls, how can their tests come back clear?
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You, I and, in an ideal world, any responsible breeder wouldn't breed dogs whose conformation was not to the breed standard but sadly we don't live in an ideal world and I do know of breeders that do just that to get a clear dog in their breeding line.
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The reason I am saying that parents should be tested as I said earlier I made the mistake of using a dog whose test results were unknown (he had been tested but waited for approx 4 months for results) The studs sire was hereditary clear as I've already mentioned so no reason to suppose there was a problem.
I will use my own dogs because they are both AA and have excellent pedigrees.
Just wondering if you've ever made a mistake Jane.
I hate to have to correct you but it's wrong to use the terminology "AA" or "B" - it's misleading as these initials were only ever used when we had the old marker test, they don't apply to the new mutation test (I say new but it's several years old now). It's great that your own dogs have excellent pedigrees and are tested clear but that's not enough and won't guarantee suitability to your own girls in the future. I'm just suggesting you be more open minded and not close your mind to outside stud dogs (properly researched of course). All breeders make mistakes but no I've never used a stud dog that's not been tested (not even in the old days when all we had was the clinical eye test) - it was just something drummed into me by breeding mentors but sadly that doesn't seem to happen so much these days, lots of new people start breeding without any knowledge or help from other experienced breeders which is very worrying. It's also sad that so many new breeders (not referring to anyone posting on this thread before anyone starts having a go at me) think they know it all already and don't need to consider anything else as long as their dogs have the magic "clear" prcd_PRA test results :(
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I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.
Sorry, I am a bit confused here. If you have 3 carrier girls, how can their tests come back clear?
Sharon has used the DNA tests as they're meant to be used - she's mated her Carriers to a Clear dog and these matings have produced Clear progeny for her to continue on with. Carrier x Clear matings do not produce Affected progeny but percentages of Clear and Carrier Progeny.
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Hi everyone,
NOW I'M TOTALLY CONFUSSED!!! :huh:
I think i've opened a can of worms here and there seems to be a debate/fall out happening here. :argue:
Still not sure if my question has been answered or not???
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Davyboy
As i understand it, so long as one of the parents is clear the worst case scenario is that the pup will be a genetic carrier. This means that the pup won't be affected by the condition, but would carry the condition in its genes. If you want a pup for a pet dog then as far as i know, so long as one parent is clear the pup should be fine. I think that is how it stacks up.
I think it's a matter of personal opinion of whether you 'judge' a breeder on whether both sire and dam are health tested.
It seems that genetically it can be safe to do so, but whether that is enough for you 'morally' is for you to decide I suppose. I'm not a breeder, so just saying how i would feel as a potential puppy owner.
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The reason I am saying that parents should be tested as I said earlier I made the mistake of using a dog whose test results were unknown (he had been tested but waited for approx 4 months for results) The studs sire was hereditary clear as I've already mentioned so no reason to suppose there was a problem.
I will use my own dogs because they are both AA and have excellent pedigrees.
Just wondering if you've ever made a mistake Jane.
I hate to have to correct you but it's wrong to use the terminology "AA" or "B" - it's misleading as these initials were only ever used when we had the old marker test, they don't apply to the new mutation test (I say new but it's several years old now). It's great that your own dogs have excellent pedigrees and are tested clear but that's not enough and won't guarantee suitability to your own girls in the future. I'm just suggesting you be more open minded and not close your mind to outside stud dogs (properly researched of course). All breeders make mistakes but no I've never used a stud dog that's not been tested (not even in the old days when all we had was the clinical eye test) - it was just something drummed into me by breeding mentors but sadly that doesn't seem to happen so much these days, lots of new people start breeding without any knowledge or help from other experienced breeders which is very worrying. It's also sad that so many new breeders (not referring to anyone posting on this thread before anyone starts having a go at me) think they know it all already and don't need to consider anything else as long as their dogs have the magic "clear" prcd_PRA test results :(
Thank you for the correction, however this is the terminology used by my circle of show people /breeders/mentor. I do not and will never profess to know everything and the last 3 years have been a very steep learning curve for me. If someone learns not to make the same mistake as I have done then great.
I have my opinion after the mistakes I have made and am entitled to that, I do respect other peoples opinion so please respect mine. The "magic clear" is a result of research and the desire to do things correctly.
I will not post further on this topic.
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Hi everyone,
NOW I'M TOTALLY CONFUSSED!!! :huh:
I think i've opened a can of worms here and there seems to be a debate/fall out happening here. :argue:
Still not sure if my question has been answered or not???
With FN and the form of PRA for which DNA testing can be done (there are different types of PRA) the results can be clear, carrier or affected.
A clear to clear mating will produce clear puppies.
A clear to carrier mating can produce both clear and carrier puppies, but none will be affected.
A clear to affected mating will produce carrier puppies, but none will be affected and none will be clear.
A carrier to carrier mating can produce clear, carrier or affected puppies.
A carrier to affected mating can produce carrier or affected puppies, but none will be clear.
An affected to affected mating will produce affected puppies.
So at least one of the parents needs to have been DNA tested clear to ensure that none of the puppies from a mating will be affected
Some breeders will only breed where both the dog and bitch have been tested, but some will breed with only one parent tested, and that's what quite a lot of the debate on this thread has been about.
For somebody wanting a puppy as a pet or for working, but not for breeding, the minimum requirement in my opinion is that one of the parents has been DNA tested for both conditions and is clear. Personally I would sooner see that both parents have been tested as even if one isn't clear at least the owner of that dog/bitch has had the test done and knows the status of it and what the possibilities are for the puppies. In addition, regular clinical eye testing should be carried out to check for things like pre-disposition to Glaucoma, which is incredibly painful and affected dogs can end up having to have one or both eyes removed.
I hope that helps :D. It's only part of the equation of looking for a healthy and nice tempered puppy, but it's an important part.
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Hi everyone,
NOW I'M TOTALLY CONFUSSED!!! :huh:
I think i've opened a can of worms here and there seems to be a debate/fall out happening here. :argue:
Still not sure if my question has been answered or not???
You sound like one of those trouble makers Davey :rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
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I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.
Sorry, I am a bit confused here. If you have 3 carrier girls, how can their tests come back clear?
Sorry I've actually got a lot on my plate at the moment, so probably not making a lot of sense, but as Jane has clarified, 3 different Carrier mums to Hereditary clear dad, produced 3 CLEAR offspring