More questions about health testing

[lyndaloo]

I know some of this has already been covered but just wanted to get things straight in my mind.  My knowledge of cockers is limited and if I decide to get one I want to do my research thoroughly.

So, a show litter where the parents' health tests are as follows:-
Dam - FN clear, PRA carrier (but mated to a clear dog)
Sire - FN and PRA clear, hip score 6-4, clear eye test (including glaucoma) 2010
I've got the results from the KC database and know that eye test results can often take quite a while to appear, but based on the age of the litter I doubt there were any recent eye tests carried out prior to mating or since.

Now if this was a Labrador litter (the breed I'm familiar with) I'd discount the litter based on:-
Neither parent has an up to date eye test
The dam isn't hip scored (and only one of her parents is)
I know that there's more to a dog than a set of hips and a lower percentage of cockers than Labs are hips scored, so it's the lack of current eye tests that particularly concerns me.

I'd appreciate your opinions - and please be gentle with me, I'm new

[Jane S]

Have you asked the breeder of the litter about eye tests? As you say, eye test results are not always up to date on the KC database - I have had to send copies of our own certificates to the KC to make sure they are on the database as it seems to take so long for the BVA to send their copies through. It could be there are more recent eye tests for the parents of this litter but then again unfortunately some Cocker breeders don't think they're necessary as long as the DNA tests have been done (perhaps they don't realise that other eye conditions exist beside prcd_PRA). KC Assured Breeders of course have to have eye tests for both parents within the last 18 months before a litter can be registered so am guessing this breeder is not a KCAB.

In the end, it comes down to your choice - there will be other litters where both parents have had all the recommended tests but only you can decide whether you want to wait or you're happy with the breeder you've found already

[KellyT]

I guess it also depends what you want to do with your cocker.

For prcd_PRA, then if you want to show and potentially breed, then any puppies from that litter have a chance of being carriers (I think it's 25%?) so you need to factor this into looking for a litter, as my personal opinion is I'd want a clear puppy (at least clear as far as the parentage can confirm).

If you just want a pet, then the worst scenario you want is for the pup to be a potential carrier - 2 of mine are potentially carriers and one has gPRA, although we thought she was clear based on her parentage, however the testing has moved on from when her dam & sire were tested (over 10 years ago now).

As Jane says though it's about your personal preference, how strongly you feel about the tests, and also how you feel about the breeder.  
My girls all came from the same breeder; I like her very much, and thankfully she likes us!

[lyndaloo]

Thanks for the responses. No, the breeder's not a KCAB. The pups are 15 weeks old so I doubt there are eye test results in the sytem anywhere. The breeder's someone who has bred and shown for years so should be aware of the need to have the eye test as well as the DNA tests. I know the simple way would be to ring the breeder and ask some of my questions directly but I wanted to get my facts straight before doing that. I've already seen one of the pups from the litter, one she's keeping herself, but didn't want to go and see the others unless I was sure in my mind about the health tests - it would be far too tempting to let heart rule head.

KellyT - so far as the dam being a PRA carrier is concerned, it's not an issue. The sire is clear so the puppies won't be affected and I have no plans to breed, only show (maybe).

The age of the pups is another concern for various reasons. I wonder why the breeder's had difficulty selling them and what socialisation they've had as they're way past the age at which they'd normally be in their new homes. Again, all questions I need to ask the breeder.

[Jane S]

The age of the pups is another concern for various reasons. I wonder why the breeder's had difficulty selling them and what socialisation they've had as they're way past the age at which they'd normally be in their new homes. Again, all questions I need to ask the breeder.

Perhaps the breeder has been "running on" several pups from the litter before he/she makes their final choice of which one to keep - this would seem quite likely if the breeder is well-known and has been breeding/showing for years.

[lyndaloo]

The age of the pups is another concern for various reasons. I wonder why the breeder's had difficulty selling them and what socialisation they've had as they're way past the age at which they'd normally be in their new homes. Again, all questions I need to ask the breeder.

Perhaps the breeder has been "running on" several pups from the litter before he/she makes their final choice of which one to keep - this would seem quite likely if the breeder is well-known and has been breeding/showing for years.

She's running on 2 from what I could gather from a brief conversation we had, but hasn't had any luck in selling the others. It was an all dog litter and I'm not sure whether that makes any difference. It also might be a case of her not advertising the litter in the right places for people to see. I have Labradors and have bred 3 litters. With each of them I had a long waiting list of potential owners (and I'm VERY careful about who I sell to) before the pups were born and could have sold them 2 or 3 times over. I realise it varies from breed to breed but nevertheless it's made me a little wary of a litter that's unsold at such a late stage. Maybe someone could confirm whether or not that's the norm with some cockers?

[Ninasmum]

The age of the pups is another concern for various reasons. I wonder why the breeder's had difficulty selling them and what socialisation they've had as they're way past the age at which they'd normally be in their new homes. Again, all questions I need to ask the breeder.

Perhaps the breeder has been "running on" several pups from the litter before he/she makes their final choice of which one to keep - this would seem quite likely if the breeder is well-known and has been breeding/showing for years.

She's running on 2 from what I could gather from a brief conversation we had, but hasn't had any luck in selling the others. It was an all dog litter and I'm not sure whether that makes any difference. It also might be a case of her not advertising the litter in the right places for people to see. I have Labradors and have bred 3 litters. With each of them I had a long waiting list of potential owners (and I'm VERY careful about who I sell to) before the pups were born and could have sold them 2 or 3 times over. I realise it varies from breed to breed but nevertheless it's made me a little wary of a litter that's unsold at such a late stage. Maybe someone could confirm whether or not that's the norm with some cockers?

Ime No  it is unusual for none of the puppies to be sold at this age 
I would also agree with you that if neither parents have an upto date KC/BVA eye test it might be wise to discount this litter 

[Jane S]

Ime No  it is unusual for none of the puppies to be sold at this age 

Agree - good breeders usually have waiting lists for pups, even the boys (we had more enquiries for boys than girls for our last litter). Can't imagine why none have sold from this litter unless the price is too high or the litter is in a geographically remote area

[Cayley]

Have they advertised the litter anywhere, maybe people don't know about them. The difference with Cockers is that there's 23 possible colours and not many people don't mind what they have  .

[lyndaloo]

Have they advertised the litter anywhere, maybe people don't know about them. The difference with Cockers is that there's 23 possible colours and not many people don't mind what they have  .

The litter's listed on the KC website and was on another site when I looked on Wednesday evening (but had gone off the next morning) Maybe it's a combination of a number of things - poor advertising, colour, location, sex of the puppies (all dogs!) They haven't got their own website and don't have a page on Champdogs (which is one of the first places I would look for a pedigree puppy) I only knew about the litter because I met the breeder at ringcraft and got chatting. I was able to find the health test results simply because I had the recent gundog BRS and could look up the parents' names.

Having looked online at various other litters it appears that this one is far from being unique in having parents that are not hipscored or have a current eye test. I think that realistically, I shouldn't be expecting the same level of health tests for cockers as there are for Labradors. I'll sleep on it and maybe give the breeder a call tomorrow.

[Jane S]

I think that realistically, I shouldn't be expecting the same level of health tests for cockers as there are for Labradors. I'll sleep on it and maybe give the breeder a call tomorrow.

I think you should be expecting exactly the same level of commitment to health testing in Cockers as for Labs - there are Cocker breeders who do all the tests, including highly successful show breeders. I certainly wouldn't settle for less but it's your decision so good luck whatever you decide