Stud Fees

[LouiseH]

Hi Folks

Probably for the more experienced breeders this one but none the less informative for all, I was just wondering from a previous experience whether breeders actually offer a refund of stud fee should a mating be unsuccessful?

Most breeders I have come accross offer a "free" mating should no puppies result, but what about if the bitch owner does not wish to breed from that bitch again, nor use that particular dog on one of their other bitches?

Also, where would the breeder stand legally should they refuse to refund the fee? It has been said that what you pay for is the "service" and should no puppies result then basically you should have to pay again...

Also, what if a breeder used a stud dog and claimed there weren't any puppies (perhaps the bitch had 6 puppies but they were not KC registered and therefore impossible to trace) Presumably this would be exaclty why we are paying for a "service" and not the guarantee of puppies...as one could make a fortune from free matings!!!

Have I made myself understandable?

Also, do any other stud dog owners have a contract of service specifiying these details in writing?

Thanks in Advance!

[Gilly]

Hi Louise,

Sorry I don't quite understand, are you asking from the point of view of a stud dog owner? ie: someone saying they have not had puppies therefore want a refund but really have had puppies, just haven't registered them?

From what I understand there isn't a contract as such just a mutual understanding that f the mating is unsuccessful a "free" mating will be allowed next season. My bitch had an unsuccessful mating last year and I have been offfered a free mating, but I do not want to take the opportunity this time. I would be interested to know how long a stud lasts? ie could I use that "free" stud another time? Although I doubt it as it is my own personal decision to not go back and have already decided to cut my losses, the up's and down's of breeding I suppose  

[Kim]

Hello Louise,
I can only speak for myself here.

I tell the owners of the bitch, before they come, that the fee is for the service

If a bitch comes to my stud dog I will give the owner a stud receipt, on it I write that should the bitch miss, they get 1 free mating next time.
If they chose to deceive me by not registering the litter, then that is a chance that I take.
In my opinion the fee is for the service not a resulting litter. So a refund of a stud fee IMO is not an option.
If the breeder does not wish to repeat that mating, the fee is lost. I have been in the same situation myself & just wrote it off.
Each time the dog is used on a bitch , he is put at risk of contracting an infection that could, in theory, render him sterile. At the end of the day my boy was bought in to use on my girls, any studs he gets from outside bitches is at my discretion.

Actually the last lady to bring a bitch to my boy asked how would I know if she had puppies & that they could easily hoodwink me - I just told her that I have ways of finding out  

Hope this helps & I don't sound too callous  

I really can't comment on the legal aspect of studwork.  

[Pammy]

Hi Lou - nice to hear fro you. Hope you and yours are well

I would have thought that the offer of a re-try was only apt for the same bitch and same stud dog because as you say - it's the mating you pay for not the puppies. It is a gesture of goodwill on the stud dog owners side unless you agree a contract preferably signed and on paper beforehand.

One way to look at it  perhaps is you don't pay more if you get more puppies or get a refund if you only get one.

If the bitch owner changes their mind and doesn't want to use that stud dog anymore then that's their prerogative but shouldn't attract a refund - unless the dog has proven infertile maybe or has some illness. However, if the stud dog owner changes their mind and doesn't want to mate their stud then it is perhaps not unreasonable that they offer another dog or a refund, but again unless this is agreed and recorded beforehand, it can only be as a gesture of goodwill and have no legal standing.

jmho

[Jane S]

In Cockers, it's always been a matter of trust. It's generally understood that if a bitch misses to a dog, then the owner will be offered a free return the next time. Sometimes this offer is restricted to the same dog & the same bitch but on other occasions, we've been offered the choice of a different dog or bringing a different bitch (usually applies to the bigger kennels). Like Kim says, if the bitch owner chooses not to come back, it's generally accepted that the stud fee is "written off" & no refunds are asked for or expected - we've "lost" several stud fees over the years where we've decided for various reasons not to go back to the same stud dog a second time. As Pam mentions, the only situation where a refund would be fair would be if a stud dog has been tested as infertile after the mating - it isn't fair in any other situation because there are so many reasons why a bitch may miss & not have puppies, many of them not the stud dog's fault. Of course it's always possible for a bitch owner to have an unregistered litter & claim their bitch missed afterwards but it's unlikely if a stud dog owner is scrupulously careful about who they allow to use their dog.

As far as the legal situation is concerned, I can't think of any cases off hand involving stud fee contracts/refunds etc. That's not to say there haven't been any but they would be heard in the Small Claims Court & cases heard there are not published. In some other breeds, it's relatively common to use contracts for the use of a stud dog which lay down all the terms & conditions but I don't think any have been legally tested. Some stud dog owners charge a small fee for the "service" & then another fee for every live puppy born, withholding the KC registration form until the litter is born. This seems more common in some breeds than others - it hasn't caught on in Cockers yet anyway

Jane

[Kim]

Gilly, I think that I would expect the same bitch to come back for her "free" return, at her next season  

[Gilly]

Sorry I meant the same bitch but not necessarily the next season, saying that though it doesn't matter because I've decided to write off the stud fee from last year  

[Mightyjoe]

Sorry to hijack this post but we where asked if we would stud Oscar the other day and said they would pay the going stud rates. We have never thought of studing Oscar so we are not sure what to do, is he old enough yet as he is only 14 months old (sorry for this) and has not started humping anything yet. Will this change the way he is if we stud him as he is a very laid back and loverly dog   Also how much do you charge or is best that we dont stud him as we only got him as a pet.

[tracey]

I think you may find this useful.

http://cockersonline.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=3420

Tracey

[Jane S]

Sorry to hijack this post but we where asked if we would stud Oscar the other day and said they would pay the going stud rates. We have never thought of studing Oscar so we are not sure what to do, is he old enough yet as he is only 14 months old (sorry for this) and has not started humping anything yet. Will this change the way he is if we stud him as he is a very laid back and loverly dog  Also how much do you charge or is best that we dont stud him as we only got him as a pet.

[snapback]112120[/snapback]

To be honest, I think you would be better off keeping Oscar as he is - your lovely, laid back pet. You'll find some pros & cons on using pet dogs at stud HERE - as you can see there is a lot to think about! You might want to consider that a reputable breeder isn't going to approach someone with an unproven pet dog & ask to use him at stud, no matter how lovely Oscar is Choosing a stud dog needs a lot of research into pedigrees, health test results etc - it's not just a case of picking the nearest male Cocker

Jane

[Mightyjoe]

Thanks for the help.   We are not going to stud Oscar because we are happy to have him as a pet, well more like a member of the family. We do not want to change the way he is and are very happy with the way things are.    Right now he is fast a sleep on his back (as Cockers do) under the desk why i am on the computer. We must take him out for a walk as he has heard the ducks outside and wants to chase them  ::

[LouiseH]

Thanks folks for confirming my thoughts on this issue.

It was more so a general enquiry than relating to a personal situation as it has only happened to me twice where a visiting bitch has missed (and it was 2 different bitches to 2 different dogs), although I was stung last year when someone's bitch missed to my stud dog that I later that year exported, hence the dog was not here for them to use on the next season, I did offer them an alternative dog (not the issue here but by then the stud fee was higher for this dog and I was not going to charge any more) but they said they "needed the money" and couldn't afford to have a litter so the fee was refunded after they threatened me. Needless to say I have learnt from this experience but how do you know who to trust.

The point I made was that they had waited over 12 months to tell me the bitch had missed and that they wanted a refund, but as my dog was no longer available i decided to refund the fee as I wasn't really sure where I stood.

When using other breeder's dogs on my bitches I have in the past been offered a free mating with another dog on any of my bitches, but I presume this would have been subject to approval.

I guess with larger breeders this works both ways, as a lot of people who breed from their bitches have stud dogs themselves so the loss would make itself up I guess.

I would imagine the free stud would last as long as needed but it would be the responsibility of the bitch owner to make the stud dog owner aware of their intentions of when they expected they would want to use it. After all, some stud dogs may not be available for very long if they are on loan from overseas for example or visiting that part of the country for what has previously been described as a stud work holiday.

Thanks anyway for all your help. It is much appreciated.

[Gilly]

I'd like to ask a question to, more about good manners than anything else
I have decided to use a different stud dog this year, one closer to home. Whilst I did not know the owner of the stud dog I used last year personally, I always kept her informed every time a premate test was done so she would know when to expect me, as it turned out we ended up going well over a week later than expected. Once the scan was done and it was confirmed Buttons wasn't in whelp I phoned to inform her immediately and she offered as had been previously agreed a free stud next season. At the time I wasn't sure what I wanted to do so didn't make any firm plans. Now I have decided not to go back is it good manners to phone back and say so?? or I do I just leave it and let her assume I'm not going back??

[LouiseH]

I'd like to ask a question to, more about good manners than anything else
I have decided to use a different stud dog this year, one closer to home. Whilst I did not know the owner of the stud dog I used last year personally, I always kept her informed every time a premate test was done so she would know when to expect me, as it turned out we ended up going well over a week later than expected. Once the scan was done and it was confirmed Buttons wasn't in whelp I phoned to inform her immediately and she offered as had been previously agreed a free stud next season. At the time I wasn't sure what I wanted to do so didn't make any firm plans. Now I have decided not to go back is it good manners to phone back and say so?? or I do I just leave it and let her assume I'm not going back??

[snapback]112197[/snapback]

I would certainly let her know but keep your options open, if you are anything like me you might change your mind by then, then you'll feel silly going back and asking for a free stud when you told her you didn't want it. Just be honest, no one can ask for more than that, tell her you don't want to travel as far next time but that you haven't made firm plans until the time comes.

Just for the record, the only time i used a premate test my bitch missed, ever since then I have gone from instinct, is there an experienced breeder close by who could help you identify the correct day to mate? Or perhaps a breeder who has a dog you like but are willing to take visiting ladies for short holidays?

[Gilly]

To be honest I really have made my mind up    I have already spoken to the breeder of my bitch and discussed choice of different dogs that she has available and gone so far as running a trial mating analysis to check the inbreeding percentage, which comes out at a nice 4% and breeding within my bitches own lines.
I had the problem last year due to my inexperience trying to pinpoint the correct day, my bitch didn't seem to tail off at all and bled quite heavily all the way through.
My breeder is only 20 minutes from here so this means I can take my bitch over every couple of days from early in the season and get a much better prediction as to when she will be ready. Still might wait until nearer the time though to inform the 1st stud dog owner