Health screening/testing question

[Holly2009]

Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly

I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts

[LynneB]

Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly

I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts

Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers.  I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.

[Cayley]

I think there's a lot of things people don't realise! A quick search on the KC data base is not the definitive answer to anything unless you personally know the person/ dog, it's entire pedigree/ history / all their results, the exact breeders plans past, present & future etc it is very easy to make assumptions which aren't always right or based on real facts

What tests did you do before breeding.

[Jane S]

Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers.  I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.

I did not jump to any conclusion Lynne - I wanted to understand and still do why you're telling other people to only buy puppies with both parents tested clear but used an untested stud dog yourself. It was not that long ago - you must have known what questions to ask about testing and where to do some research (the KC database Holly2009 is so dismissive of me using is actually pretty useful as a first port of call) so you didn't need to use an untested dog. It's obviously a difficult and upsetting situation for you now but not really a reason to only use your own studs in future - you just need to do what every other serious breeder does, research, research and more research. Don't you agree?

[Holly2009]

It just doesn't sit easy with me, just...seems a bit sneaky & underhand to post comments on an open forum prior to asking LynneB privately any details, suggesting genetic bottle necks etc to me that looks like it was aimed at Lynne (maybe it wasn't) as with suggesting the paper work never got through maybe that was a general comment and not insinuating anything? As admin I would of thought those kind of comments would of been done via pm.

[LynneB]

Thanks for your comments, maybe I should explain my reasons for my beliefs.... Yes Jane I did make the mistake of using an untested dog last year (my girl is tested and AA). He is not my dog by the way. When his tests results eventually came through (took about 4 months) he was affected with PRA even though his sire was hereditary clear. I was so upset as the puppies would most likely be carriers.  I then had to call all the people who had bought the puppies to tell them and I got abuse from some of them believe me, even though the puppies are all endorsed with the KC and this particular one had already been spayed. Maybe now you can understand why I will only use my own tested dogs and not jump to the conclusion that I do not know what I am doing.

I did not jump to any conclusion Lynne - I wanted to understand and still do why you're telling other people to only buy puppies with both parents tested clear but used an untested stud dog yourself. It was not that long ago - you must have known what questions to ask about testing and where to do some research (the KC database Holly2009 is so dismissive of me using is actually pretty useful as a first port of call) so you didn't need to use an untested dog. It's obviously a difficult and upsetting situation for you now but not really a reason to only use your own studs in future - you just need to do what every other serious breeder does, research, research and more research. Don't you agree?

The reason I am saying that parents should be tested as I said earlier I made the mistake of using a dog whose test results were unknown (he had been tested but waited for approx 4 months for results) The studs sire was hereditary clear as I've already mentioned so no reason to suppose there was a problem.

I will use my own dogs because they are both AA and have excellent pedigrees.

Just wondering if you've ever made a mistake Jane.

[Ninasmum]

Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.

Nina's sad case shows why breeders need to keep up the annual eye testing & be aware that other eye conditions besides prcd_PRA are out there - I think you said the specialist says Nina probably has a different form of PRA not covered by the current DNA test so no amount of testing every generation would have revealed this. I do think that hereditary clears should be re-tested every 2 or 3 generations combined with annual clinical testing. Hopefully research will also continue into other forms of PRA and new tests developed in future.

Yes thats right Jane....Optigen have tested her bloods & so far todate have no matches with her type of GPRA   Trust my bad luck (or Nina's rather) 
I still see adverts from breeders stating that their puppies will never go on to develop such eye conditions & feel this is incorrect, as i know other forms of it are out there. 

Incidentally the CS Breed Health Co-Ordinator rang last week to ask for some more info etc about Nina & i was shocked to hear she had only had 6 Health Questionaire's completed. 
With such a huge number of this breed being born every year, along with being one of the most popular breeds, it seems such a very small number that actually have health problems recorded.  It sadly appears that some breeders are reluctant to give more information about health problems with their dogs/puppies.   

I also heard recently that Golden Retrievers have now another form of PRA, which i understand they have named PRA 2 

[Sharon]

When we took Dylan for his annual eye screening, Nick Burden told us that there were a lot more 'types' of pra than what is currently tested for but it is something the KC eye scheme are looking into.

[HelenM]

I thought dogs were classified as either A (clear), B (carrier) or C (affected) sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but what is an "AA" result?

Also I totally agree with Jane in that you cannot discount carriers as narrowing the gene pool is a very dangerous path to follow for the breed.  Maybe not for our generation or even the next but further down the track we could find our lovely breed suffering from similar problems affecting other breeds.

[LynneB]

I thought dogs were classified as either A (clear), B (carrier) or C (affected) sorry if I'm being a bit thick here but what is an "AA" result?

Also I totally agree with Jane in that you cannot discount carriers as narrowing the gene pool is a very dangerous path to follow for the breed.  Maybe not for our generation or even the next but further down the track we could find our lovely breed suffering from similar problems affecting other breeds.

AA is clear of PRA and FN. One point I would like to make is if the gene pool is PRA carriers is that the right thing to do. Surely health is more important. "narrowing the gene pool" is such a sweeping statement. Are there not enough clear dogs to breed from that it would endanger the breed?

[Cayley]

There is nothing wrong with using carriers to clears as long as you endorse the puppies, that is something you should do anyway. I don't think FN carriers should be used unless you can test the puppies and neuter the carriers before going at about a year .

[HelenM]

Thank you for explaining "AA" but stating carriers are somehow unhealthy dogs IMO is also a sweeping statement as yes they carry the gene but will never develop the disease.  I know of some carriers that are of a far superior quality on a conformation basis than some clear dogs.  Are you saying it's ok to breed dogs that are say upright in shoulder or have bad mouths as long as it's an "A".

What happens if in the future, like Goldie's, a new strain or form of PRA is identified and some dogs previously classified as "A" are "B" for the new strain and visa versa?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and on this subject everyone has one   but I think it's too simplistic to say only use "A" dogs as medicine / science is finding new problems all the time.  

[Sharon]

I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.

[LynneB]

I did not say that carriers are unhealthy, I am looking at the "big picture". Carriers can pass on the gene therefore creating the "unhealthy stock". It is common sense that you would not breed a dog with conformation problems.

[LynneB]

I have 3 carrier girls, all mated to my own boy Dylan, who is hereditary clear, all 3 have been Optigen pra tested and all came back clear, now if we stick to your suggestions none of these matings would have taken place, but I now have 3 clear bitches to carry on my lines.

Sorry, I am a bit confused here. If you have 3 carrier girls, how can their tests come back clear?