Author Topic: Biting revisited  (Read 2821 times)

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Offline suki1964

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Biting revisited
« on: July 24, 2004, 05:25:54 PM »
Alfie has only been home four days and although I couldnt ask for more when it comes to sleeping at night and toilet training :)  his biting is constant :(

I know its a puppy thing and that he will grow out of it :!:  its just right now its becoming really difficult to handle him, even when Im carrying him round the block or up the stairs hes at my ears or throat ( and my pore boovs have taken a battering) Playing with him gets him more excited and biting more and walking away ignoring him is hard when hes attached to my leg or foot  :(

Im not sure how firm to be with him over this or how to handle it. Putting him in another room is a no no as he howls the place down and then chews whatever he can fit in his mouth (table legs, carpet) and I dont want to  time out in his crate as Im trying to make that a "nice" place for him. Tapping the bridge of the nose just means a finger has just been presented to him to latch onto :(

Any ideas?

At the moment Im doing my best to distract him by giving him his toys or chew sticks, but then surely Im giving him the wrong message?

I guess Im feeling a tad stressed today as hubby is away and Im so intent on getting things right.

Thanks

Suki                    
Caroline and Alfie

Offline s baxter

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Biting revisited
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2004, 06:31:43 PM »
oh suki ,we`ll av a good chat over a cuppa tomorrow,( i many not av any great ideas but i`m a great ear!)we av A lfie`s puppy pen (from petsathome)around his crate so when he does the biting thing (goodness knows it can be a right pain in the neck literally for you,and a part from the biting i find myself nearly tripping over him when he`s at my ankle)we pop him in it and he`s excluded from us :(  then it`s even better for him if i stay in the kitchen and busy myself(not hard as you know )he`s getting much better(he`s getting the message you bite you get put on your own and ignored ,not nice! ),i`m not even sure if i`m correct in doing this but it`s hard to keep them in another room i think they might think you`ve left and gone.i think our pen was about £45 and i would`nt be without it now and highly recommend it and i hope to sell it when i need it now longer,i`m sure it`ll look good as new so should get £20 back on it
sorry to ramble on just thoght i`d post in case someone else has the same problem too cu tomorrow  :o                    
sue baxter and Alfie

Offline PennyB

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Biting revisited
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2004, 11:25:10 PM »
I'd say no to tapping the bridge of his nose as he could get handshy which you will have far worse problems in the future.

Read all of Rustys posts re this as they seem to be getting somewhere and the rest is patience and perserverance.

Is there some place else you can 'put him out' as like you say the crate should be a postive environment.                    
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Offline Laura

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Biting revisited
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2004, 11:55:59 PM »
Brogan was a nightmare pup for this - cried buckets in the early days for this very reason.  Have you read the article in Cocker Questions about playbiting?  It offers some great advice that works.  We did the yelping loudly and walking away - it worked but seemed that poor Broggie was forever in isolation - which he was :lol: !!  The time outs did work wonders.  We didn't use his crate for this - didn't want it to be associated with punishment but he was put behind the stairgate in the kitchen or in the bottom toilet area - after moving the loo brush and tissue first!! :lol: (That loo brush was an ornament on my shelf for months) :shock:  :lol:

The only way I could stroke Brogan or get near him was by stuffing something appropriate to bite in his mouth first :lol:  Occupied teeth couldn't damage me!!   A nylabone or soft toy went everywhere with me to save my arms and hands :twisted:   Was the only way that I could break the cycle of always having to ignore him.  He did eventually cotton on to bite inhibition.   8)  I didn't think giving a toy gave the wrong message - as biting isn't wrong it is what puppies do - they do however need to learn what is and is not allowed to be chewed - skin is a no no!!  I would also give a food treat if Brogan was sitting nicely chewing a toy - to reinforce that this was what we wanted.

Good luck - it will get better - I promise you!!  And in a few weeks you will sympathise with the next person in the same situation - but you will know by then that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a mirage!!                    
Laura x

Run free together boys. Missing you both xx
Bailey  29/04/04 - 16/03/11
Brogan 29/07/03 - 22/10/09

Offline Rusty

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Biting revisited
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2004, 09:24:47 AM »
Hi Suki

We know exactly what you are going through :( fortunately we seem now to be getting some where :) you probably think that you can't take much more as that is where we were at  :?  We had went as far as thinking about the possibilty of giving him away!! :cry: Had we bought a pup with a severe behavioural problem?

It turns out, regardless of what you read in the books and no matter how prepared you think you are, its not easy. Every pup is different, we spoke with friends about their dogs and no-one would have a bad word to say about them - apparently they didn't ever have these problems with their dogs, or at least they have forgotten as we now know!

My wife crooned and cooed far too much for us to progress with Rusty. She has now curbed this as he was beginning to think he was the boss, the centre of attention. Of course being pups they need attention, but we have tried to be more sly about how we give Rusty attention. The kids, to be honest, were bloody nuisances and obviously were excited about having a pup, but we have spoken to them to make sure Rusty has time alone. I don't wish to exalt all the blame on the rest of my family, as although I don't want a spoiled dog, I suppose I was too hard. Therfore Rusty wasn't getting the consistency he needed.  So all the talk and arrangements we made about being consistent when he came home, had to be re-done as we had unawarely broken it in the midst of the trauma!!!  :shock:

Writing this even now, it seems like ages ago, but we are only talking about last week!!!!!!  :shock:

The progress we have made over the past few days has been incredible. We haven't really changed what we were doing, just relaxed a bit. We have also allocated a new sin-bin in the porch, where there is nothing to chew, nothing to see, so its basically a jail. Whereas we had been originally putting him in the kitchen. This was having nil-effect, as this is were he sleeps, eats, goes out the back door, so he only associated it with fun things! He hates the porch! He howls like a banshee, but do not let him back in until he stops howling, as he will think all he needs to do is howl and he'll be let back in!!! The first few times its hard to listen to, but you 'need' to let him get on with it, they learn very quickly. Rusty now knows that howling/barking/crying, doesn't get him back into our company and the best way to stay in our company is to behave in the first place.

I'm not for a minute making it sound as though we have cracked it and are some sort of super owners, obviously as Rusty is still having his moments. But, he's also been with us 5 weeks, which seem like forever, so he's growing with us too.

The books are great, but remember they aren't specific to your pup. We've found taliking to others and posting on this forum invaluable. Other owners share opinions and points of view and sometimes we think "maybe Rusty ain't THAT bad after all"? His toilet training is 1st class and I 'think' we might have cracked (fingers crossed). Other folks are still clearing up in the house after their dogs when they are a year old!!!!!!!

Keep with it, keep posting and replying - its got us through a few difficult weeks.

Mick Elle & Rusty                    

Offline suki1964

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Biting revisited
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2004, 10:35:09 AM »
Thanks for the support you guys :)

Mick, your posts have kept me sane. To know you are coming out of it after such a hard time really brings home to me that there will be light at the end of the tunnell :)

I think whats happened is with it just being me at home atm, Im doing it all and just got overtired and forgot what I should be doing.

For the rest of the day I took on board the advice of walking away and ignoring him for a moment or two when he started biting. Ok so I was in and out of the garden like a yo yo, but it worked - fingers and toes still attached :)

I really dont have a room thats safe for "time out" so I shall have to perservere with this, and Ive taken on board that Im not rewarding "bad" behaviour when giving him chew sticks - chew sticks are better then my table legs :)

Once again thanks, I really appriciate the support and advice

Suki                    
Caroline and Alfie

Offline Rusty

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Biting revisited
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2004, 01:09:50 PM »
Quote

Mick, your posts have kept me sane. To know you are coming out of it after such a hard time really brings home to me that there will be light at the end of the tunnell :)


Suki, I'm glad we have helped, although maybe inadvertantly   8)

The forum is excellent, with everyone giving support.  :wink:  

Yes theres light at the end of the tunnel for us, but its a loooooooooooooooong tunnel  :shock:  I must admit that, although everybody would say "keep with it" and "it will just happen", I was beginning to think, we'll be the unlucky ones, we'll be stuck with an angry mutt!!!  :evil:  But fortunately everyone was right, it will just come. We had to change as you know, but maybe coincidentally, it has started to happen.

Chin up, I know exactly how you feel.

All I need to do now, is teach Rusty how to walk on all 4 paws!!!!!!!!

Mick Elle & Rusty                    

Offline speedyjaney

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Biting revisited
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2004, 10:06:18 PM »
Hi Mick
We had a similar problem with Jessie walking on 2 legs, at the full stretch of her 'loose' lead front legs off the floor  :shock:
We tried not walking forward until she came back to heel...but as soon as we took one step she would do it again! In the end we bought a harness...this stopped it...for a bit. at almost one she still does this if she sees something she REALLY wants...like a cat  :oops:  or a squirrel  :oops:
But age does help. At one point when she was very little our walks sometimes didnt get any further than the pavement as we would stop start so much it wouls take almost an hour lol
Keep at it....eventually he will realise that walking on all 4 paws is better than just 2
Jane and Jessie                    

Offline Rusty

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Biting revisited
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2004, 07:48:35 PM »
Hi Jane

Its murder isn't it, walking on the 2 rear legs!!!  :roll:

If he's not walking on the 2 legs, he's lying flat out!  :?

My wife and my youngest daughter are more successful at taking him for a walk, although they have their moments.

I have tried treating him, but he doesn't even take the the treat, he's adamant that he's in control, so its a bit of a power struggle.

The routine goes like this for me:- Get him on the lead, take him outside, spend 10 minutes getting him to the bottom of the path, then spend another 1/2 hour getting him to 'walk' 50 yards, in between this he's crying/choking/howling to get back home, so on the way back it would take Rusty approx 30 seconds to get home, but because he goes into two legged mode with desperation to get back to  'mummy' (the spoiler) it takes some severe stop -starting to control him. In fact his eyeballs cross the finishing line first cause they bulge that much with him pulling.

We bought a harness, due to the amount of choking and spluttering the collar was causing him. I think we should maybe consider the 'half-choker' style collar, but I'm not sure.  :?

Mick Elle & Rusty                    

Offline PennyB

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Biting revisited
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2004, 08:31:53 PM »
I think Mick re Rusty in time he will take the treat but there's far more other interesting things out there. Its all about focusing your dog which at this age is impossible for anything longer than a few seconds. Have you tried for some occasions making the treats really tasty (cheese or ham or dried liver). The main idea is to treat them when they focus on you, i.e. say look at me, or what's this and as soon as they look at you treat them. Or maybe use a squeaky toy to grab their attention and then as soon as they look at you then treat them. At this stage its all about doing things in 'bite size pieces' if you excuse the pun. So you're not treating them for the complete task but for correct stages and as they get older the treats get less and less and so they have to work hard for them. My trainer was very good in showing me all this.

If the training classes are full at the moment why not see a 1-2-1 trainer to help on the right road (as it were). While socializing with other dogs is important if you can do this while you're out anyway (in safety) then that would be fine (my 2 were well socialized as pups with other dogs and so didn't need socialization classes but we needed to be shown how to walk to heel properly).

It will take time as their concentration span is so small and you need to add lots of play into it or they'll get bored and training will become a chore for them.                    
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Offline suki1964

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Biting revisited
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2004, 01:37:41 PM »
Well Alfie has been with us for 5 weeks now and the biting is still a huge problem :(

The only time I can get near him is to stuff something in his mouth to try and distract him. Im yelping as loudly as I can when he does nip (not all are fake) but he still carries on. Its getting to the point where even trying to groom him or put his ear drops in is a major battle - one that hes winning :(

Hes never been one for snuggling up wanting a cuddle or to be carried anywhere so its really hard to be with him when hes calm. I hoping he will grow out of it but Im worried in case he nips a child (he's already nipped my diabetic step dads foot drawing blood) :)

Any advice at all? Im really struggling with this

Thanks
Caroline and Alfie

Offline Jaljen

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Biting revisited
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2004, 04:01:58 PM »
I think isolation is the answer. It's quite natural pack behaviour.

Offend - be excluded.

Another room, the garden, any safe place that's pretty unstimulating. Then as soon as he is quiet allow him back. You will have to repeat this LOADS of times but it will work.

This will show him that you have the power and you are top dog. Ignore any barking/howling.

I promise that it works but you and the family have to be consistent. Loads of other people recommend it so you can gather it's effective.

Good luck.  :)  

Offline suki1964

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Biting revisited
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2004, 08:16:32 AM »
Thanks for that advice Jaljen, but as I said before at the biginning of this thread, I really dont have anywhere to isolate him - downstairs is two rooms,kitchen/family room and living room, and upstairs is where he sleeps anyway. And I wouldnt leave him in the garden unsupervised as for him its one big playground - holes to dig, plants to eat :(

Last night he caught my hand drawing blood (not a lot ) so I yelped with pain and moved away from him as normal and as normal his response was to run after me and attach himself to the bottom of my trousers by his teeth :(

I really dont know what to do. In everything else hes so good. Hes not possesive with his toys or food or crate. Hes learning to walk nicely on the lead, sits on command and his recall is about 99%.

Anything else I should be trying?
Caroline and Alfie

Offline Cathy

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Biting revisited
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2004, 09:12:06 AM »
If you don't have doors on any of the rooms downstairs you could try a door/stair gate, to seperate the rooms, and put him in there, for what may only be 30 secs a time.

It sounds like what happened last night, he still thinks is playing. You need to find some way of putting him out of the situation, so he is alone, if there are other people in the kitchen then get everyone out and leave him in there, its doesn't have to be a small space, just somewhere he is alone. Don't forget its only for a very short while, so he shouldn't rally have time to think about getting up to much mischeif as he will be thinking what he has done has menat hes alone.

You just need to perserve with the loud firm no, as soon as he bites, and get up and totally ignore him for 30 secs. Then afterwards play with a toy with him and praise his, if he bites again repeat.

I was amazed at how well the loud yelp works, it she bites/nips or jumps on my face, I let out an agongising yelp, and cluch my hand face or whatever and turn away for a few secs, then ignore her. When I look back at her she looks worried. and sometims licks me.  It does get the message over.

Whats his behaviour like when it comes to sit/down and stay? have you taught him to settle down?  

Another thing, Jazz still nips, very occasionally, and 50% of the time walks on 2 legs, mostly around the hour before her feed.

cathy
Puppies were used to being snapped at by there mother and then ignored. Its also important not to let it go on for too long, so a gruge isn't held.

Jazz was like this for months and at one s tage stage it went on for weeks and nothing worked, and then i got firmer, and was really loud with my Nos, made a really big deal of ignoring her and getting up and putitng her out of the room. I say NO BITING. during play, and she now seems to have stopped.



 
CATHY

'A dog may be the only opportunity a human has to choose a relative.' -- Mordecai Siegal

Offline Jaljen

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Biting revisited
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2004, 12:49:07 PM »
Do try to find a baby-gate to block off one room. Second-hand.

Or.. and I'm not sure about this but..

Tether her to something with the lead. Then you go to another room. As soon as she is quiet let her back. You have to accompany this with a strong NO. It's not ideal but if isolating her is such a big problem.. :(  At training class that is how we were taught the down-stay. Keep your foot on the lead so they have to stay down. The dog is guaranteed success and praise. I don't think the lead-thing would be cruel. I'm not sure it would work but .. <_<

For walk-time and the lead make sure you make happy noises.

Oh also generally. Groom her a lot, get her belly-up. That is submissive and helps show her you are the boss. Play games that you win. Tug-of-war - but not too rough. Hold her toy, show her, keep it, make her sit and wait. Then give it. Checking her teeth, lifting her lip.


Good luck.