aggressive behaviour any advice welcomed!

[paul and jane]

Hi everyone, I hope you can help me please.. We have a problem with our 8 month old blue roan - Stella.

We have not allowed her onto the furniture, but recently she has taken to jumping into chairs and onto sofas... Her behaviour really takes a turn for the worse where she behaves very aggressively to anyone that approaches her to remove her from the seat. Tonight was worst of all, with growling, snarling and attempts at biting when I had managed to remove her after a while by cajolling with a chew and taking her collar as I took her to her crate!

I fear for the worst.. have I a rogue Blue Roan? - I hope not as she is much loved by all the family... We have had problems with her from time to time where she feels she is the alpha dog, but to counter that her puppy and intermediary classes went very well and she has learnt a number of commands and responds well. But this problem with the chairs at the moment does worry me...

I look forward to your responses
Paul and Jane...                    

[KellyP]

hmmm - I'm certainly no expert on behaviour ... but perhaps she is grumpy as she may be coming into season?
Millie got a bit grumpy on the run up to her 1st season (which she had particularly early for a blue roan at 9months) but she was more 'depressed' than being dominant.

I'm afraid I haven't really any other advice to give, not knowing a geat deal about it .. but I'm sure one of the more knowledgable behavioural members will be along shortly and will post something more informative!

In the meantime I hope things improve for you with your little lady, don't give up just yet!

Kel
x

EDITED TO ADD - that perhaps you should try be more dominant than her? try not to 'cower' and 'bow' to her new demands and agression - make sure you re-inforce that you are the 'top-dog'. Try feeding her after you've eaten, ignoring her when you come home until she's quiet, and you are ready to say hello etc .. perhaps she just needs to be reminded that she doesn't and won't always get her own way ??                    

[paul and jane]

i had wondered that kelly p but I dont think that is the case with stella at the moment - by the way your phot of your dog is an exact replica of stellas face Ill get stellas on soon then you will see...                    

[PennyB]

Has anyone suggested reading Jan Fennells 'The dog listener' or even Gwen Baileys 'The Perfect Puppy'. I had huge problems with my cocker roan bitch because she was/is such a confident, bossy, dominant so and so—and have been down the same road you're on now.

Sometimes we can easily elevate our dogs status above our own and so they then believe they are boss especially when that dog has dominant tendencies (I could elevate my other younger cocker's status and he wouldn't bat an eyelid as he's more than happy for someone else to be topdog). Basically what Kelly was saying in that your dog is probably confused about its status. I also found that Ruby became 'worse' in the run up to her season (her season was at 12 months but she began a change in behaviour from about 9 months).                    

[Jane S]

I prefer not to use the term "alpha dog" as true alphas are not exactly common in wild wolf packs let alone in a domestic dog situation and that's assuming that we accept the theory that domestic dogs view humans as members of their pack (not all behaviourists/writers on behaviour accept this today). Every dog is different and I don't believe that the same methods work for every dog - Jan Fennel's approach may work well in some situations and not in others (eg some dogs end up depressed & subdued after their owners have followed the Fennel method).

Anyway, back to Stella - at 8 months, her body may well be experiencing a number of hormonal changes which may be making her moodier & stroppier than normal. I'd compare her to a girl going through puberty and I'm sure we girls remember what we put our parents through at that time - the tantrums, door slamming etc OK, accepting Stella is probably going through the stroppy teenage phase, how you react to her is vital. If you are worried and even fearful of the growling/snapping, then she will pick up on this. You need to be confident and assertive in how you handle her. I personally would not be cajoling her - if she was mine, then she would be unceremoniously removed from the chair (remember you are much bigger and stronger than she is!) and excluded from the room and your company for a time-out session. This would be repeated every time she got up on the furniture until she got the message. However it is difficult to advise over the internet without seeing the dog in question or how you react to her so this is purely how I would approach the situation. I'm sure others will have different ideas :wink:                    

[Loraine]

The first time my oldest dog did this to me when I attempted to take her off the chair really shocked and frightened me.  Being the dramatic person that I am  :roll:  I was straight on the phone to the behaviourist and she advised me do as Jane said.  You have to be firm and very assertive.  Much more assertive that I was being that's for sure.  She was picking up on my nervousness and completely exploiting it!  It even turned into a big game and she'd jump straight back up again, paws forward bum in the air looking playful but in actual fact trying to be dominant.

She's still really stubborn and 'tries it on' when I tell her to get off a chair (she's now 18months) but I stick to my guns and firmly place her back on the floor or out of the room even though she grumbles and goes rigid when I pick her up and sometimes even snaps.   :evil:   I don't take any nonsense from her and she soon calms down.

She really knows how to be a wilful cocker!!

Thankfully the second time around I knew a bit better and was firm right from the start but then again my other dog is completely different and eager to please so I shouldn't be too pleased with myself - it wasn't all down to me!!                      

[PennyB]

I resolved the jumping up on chairs etc. and snapping if I wanted Ruby to get down by persuading her (treat) with a command off (and pointing at the floor) then praising her. Don't need treats now and every time I point at the floor and say off she jumps off every time. I never have to physically move her but if anyone else tried then she will now get off obligingly! Basically I began ignoring the bad behaviour but reinforced good behaviour in a positive way.

I found the Jan Fennel books interesting but don't follow them to the letter. I usually do things like a firm no for any bad behaviour but if that doesn't work because she's in one of her stroppy/cocky 'I know better than you' moods I go around the house totally ignoring her until she's calmed down, and then rewarding any good behaviour. I eat 1st followed by Ruby and Wilf, and entering/leaving the house I don't make a fuss of the dogs. However, I've yet to make a dignified exit if we are going out for a walk!

Yelping if she ever nipped me as a puppy/young dog has never worked for me but totally unconventionally I growl back at her (don't think that one's in the books).

It is a battle of wills with Ruby but we have an understanding and I find she doesn't play up with other people only me (we're both very stubborn)!                    

[Mary]

Totally agree with Jane, you must show you are in control and not concerned by her behaviour when she retaliates when you try moving her.

Lottie can be an absolute angel but at times she can be so wilful and will really push her luck (just like my daughters :roll:   ).  If I want her off the sofa so as I can sit down then she may grumble depending on her mood.....but, I don't tolerate it and will remove her, no messing :wink:  She'll often then jump on my lap and give me a kiss as if to say 'sorry I grumbled' :?  :wink:

You have to be firm and let them know you are in control, not them :wink:                    

[Michelle_S]

We had a similar issue with Harry when he was about 5 months old and decided to growl menacingly when we tried to remove him from the sofa - it made me nervous that he would snap - we put a 'house line' on him ( a short lead attached to his collar) and when he jumped on the sofa,  pulled him off using this with a firm 'NO'. We only had to do it twice before he got the message and has never tried it again!                    

[Pammy]

I agree with everything Jane has said. If you give them an inch - they'll take the mile. It could be down to hormones etc - but that doesn't change how you deal with it.

My boys will sometimes grumble at me if I'm making them move - but as Jane says - they are unceremoniously ousted and put out of the room and they know they are in the bad books, there is no cajoling or tempting with treats. They get to come back a few minutes later. This time out actually helps both sides too :wink:

You must be cinfident and not tolerate this behaviour in anyway - if you show any emotion other than calm control - she'll think she's the boss - and cockers are very good at that anyway                    

[Colin]

Jimmy is allowed on the furniture but I was a bit taken aback when he growled at me when I tried to shift him off a couple of times. I was told by a trainer that he would'nt necessarliy understand why I was moving him from his usual place and could possibly even see my actions as confrontational. The advice was to say his name, approach him in a curve rather than head on, not make direct eye contact and not loom over him, but gently push him off from the side whilst saying "off" in a cheery but confident voice. It worked straight away.  

What works for one dog won't necessarily for all but in Jimmy's case I've found that gentle persuasion works whereas a more commanding bossy approach makes him react defensively unfortunately. He is a bit on the sensitive side. :roll:                    

[paul and jane]

Thank you to all those that replied to our call for help...

Thanks to Michael S, we have tried tonight using an old lead which Stella has taken to quite nicely, she jumped up three times but with the lead it gave me chance to get hold of something without losing my hand!.. She didn't like being pulled off so swiftly, with a firm NO, I can tell you, but we noticed that she realised who was boss! First day success but certainly - I guess - not overall success as it is too soon to say but if its OK with all of you Ill post you later with the progress...
regards to all Paul and Jane                    

[ziggy]

hi paul and jane,,hope you are having success,i too have a problem with jasper 2yr old black,if he has been naughty i do shut him out,he spends all of the day with me in the shop,he will then go and mess somewhere in the house,since i have been firmer it,s not so bad,trouble is cockers look at you with that delicious face ,,and you feel guilty,so you relent,i do i,m a real soft touch,hope you have scored a goal there best of luck,,p.s. i will keep going but he is sweety of the year occasionally