Training tips for ex puppy farm dogs?

[Maria]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place.........
We've had Smudge for nearly a year now, and she has good recall offlead, can do a 'sit' when asked.......but seems to be nervous of 'normal' training methods 
The sound of a clicker scares her, and she cannot be lured into a 'down'  (I don't know if this makes her feel vulnerable, but she will stand back up and and then bend forward). If you say 'good girl' too loud she runs away .
I don't want to force her to do anything, so she learnt to sit by us using the word whenever she did it naturally, and we're doing that now with 'stand'. I don't think she's anywhere near confident enough for basic classes.....
If we try to lure her into an action, she will quickly get nervous and run back to her crate.
She learnt most of her housetraining through observing Boysie, but doesn't seem to learn anything else by observation from him - so if I say 'down' to Boysie he will, but she prefers to offer a sit at every opportunity.
Maybe it isn't important for her to be highly trained, but we'd like her to be able to go to classes, and maybe try agility too - she loves jumping over a little jump we have and going through a tunnel .
Just wondering if anyone had any useful tips to share please?

[LurcherGirl]

Clicker training still seems the best way forward as you can freeshape a lot of stuff. However, instead of using a clicker, you could use the top of a pen which makes a much quieter noise. You can also get clickers with different noises, which are much more comfortable in a dog's ear. Instead of a noise from a clicker type thing, you could also use just a word like "Yes" or "Click" or whatever you like, and then just continue the normal methods of clicker training.

With the down, you don't have to lure it from the sit if that doesn't work. You could just hold a treat on the floor and wait until she moves into the down position to get it. It might take a while until she catches on, but she will.

I think once she knows a few more exercises, she will enjoy training as she gets more confident. One exercise I really like is what I call "freetime". I click every move that the dog does, be it cock the head, wag the tail, look somewhere, drop the head, move a paw etc. This teaches the dog that it is their own actions that get them rewards, it teaches them to experiment and it makes them more flexible and confident. Works a treat on most dogs.

Good luck.

Vera

[Maria]

Thanks for that - really useful ideas there.
We've noticed her confidence has improved a lot just by using the jump / tunnel - she used to walk round them, but loves doing her own 'circuit'. I love the idea of the 'freetime'
Thanks again

[DennyK]

Maria

Where do you stand/sit in relation to Smudge when you're training her?  Since she's a shy, nervous dog, she might find a "full frontal" too overwhelming.  To a dog, a face-on, direct stance is seen as aggressive/threatening.  Most dogs adjust and learn that it's OK from their owners (although most still give off "calming signals" like turning their heads slightly, licking their lips, blinking a lot - see www.calmingsignals.com for more info on calming signals) but she may settle a little more if, say, you stand sideways on to her and if you use calming signals yourself - like yawning, turning your head away then glancing at her, lip licking etc - to reassure her that there's no threat present.

I know someone who has used the word "Bingo" to represent the clicker as her dog startled every time she clicked.  One other thing I've read on clickers is that some dogs don't quickly make the association between the clicker and the treat - so whether you're using the clicker (try it in your pocket to muffle it, if you want to persevere) or using a "Bingo" type word to "mark" the action - first get her all-time fave treats - about fifty or sixty of them, get her near you and just "click" (or "bingo") and treat for a minute or so, to teach her click= treat.

Hope that helps.

Denise

[Maria]

Thanks Denise that does help. I'm usually standing, -except when I've tried a down.
More useful info to help!
Thanks again

[PennyB]

Some clickers are quieter than others --- I use the I-click which isn't as loud as the box-type clickers, and are easier to use sometimes

[Tasha]

Did you keep her original name or change it when she came??  I've found that sometime with the really nervous ones starting off with a change of name helps.  If good girl is scaring her change it doesn't matter what you use, with one of my old boys we use 'muppet' he was always recalled by his previous owner with a 'goodboy' and then a beating so you have to go about it differently.  You can teach downs by sitting on the floor yourself.

Good luck.

[AnnieG]

My Millie is ex-puppy farm too and - like you - I can't use clicker training on her.  Frankly, I'm not even going to try since she has responded well to other things and I can't see the point in worrying her.  Same problems on 'down' too.  I taught her by putting the treat under and just back from a chair rung, so she had to go down to get at it.  It was sausage so she's have done anything to get her snout on it.  Re. the crate - Millie is the same with her bed.  I would never threaten her place of safety - I just did most of the training in the garden which is enclosed and familiar but does not have her bolt-hole to hand.  If Smudge goes through a tunnel, you've already done brilliantly so the methods you're using must be working.  I reckon it took two years to get Millie to the point you'd manage in six months with a 'normal' dog but she's pretty good now. 

[Maria]

Thanks all - some really good points to think about. We knew she would take longer to train than a dog with a 'normal' background, but we/she will get there......

[Penel]

My mum's ex breeding puppy farm bitch has only just this week had the confidence to go off the lead without running back to the car - she's had her a year this month...
Suddenly "down" doesn't seem so important !

[Maria]

My mum's ex breeding puppy farm bitch has only just this week had the confidence to go off the lead without running back to the car - she's had her a year this month...
Suddenly "down" doesn't seem so important !

Absolutely right! That's one of the reasons why I asked the question, because I wasn't sure what to expect , if you see what I mean.
It's been very reassuring to find out other's experiences with their dogs, and how far they have come. We carry on with the slow, softly softly approach ............

[Mary P]

Hi Maria,
I'm with Penel on this one. We've now had Peggy 14 months, and she's just cracked the toilet stuff in the past couple of months (mostly), and is good with sit, and almost 100% on recall even in interesting places now. She was scared of outside at first and would shake, so I'm really pleased with her progress so far.
I think once she gets more confident she might like agility (as we're quite close then if you find a good place let me know please!!). Peggy's scared of the squeak in toys, so I would also love to teach her to play, but have to find the right toy....
I'm not sure Peggy would like a tunnel!!
Well done with your achievements so far both of you!

[Penel]

Mum's girl, Missie, lived in a pen the size of a pigsty all her life  she really didnt know anything about the outside world.  She is very attached to her soft toys   - and stil carries them from room to room with her a lot - she also only knew life with puppies - so for her not to have pups any longer must be very strange, and possibly very sad for her.  Her last litter were stillborn which is why the b*stard got rid of her.
These poor dogs will never be "normal" but it's wonderful that so many people are giving them a second chance and being so patient and kind to them.

[Lufbra]

Out of all the 4 M's it seems that my little six year-old Pip has come out the most scared and it's reassuring to read from this thread that although we've had her nearly four months now it is very early days. She remains terrified of my husband who is trying so hard to bond with her and is nothing but kind and gentle - we can only think that he reminds her of someone horrible in her past as she is not quite as wary with some other men. Although not as bad as she was with going through doors she is very resistant to coming back inside after being in the garden when someone is there waiting to shut it afterwards and won't even follow my other dog in. If she can see that the door leading from the kitchen to the sitting room is open she will sprint through, but if it's closed and she can see we just want her to come into the kitchen, she runs off. If no-one is by the door she will wander in but at night this is proving to be very trying when letting her out for her last wee takes up to an hour to get her back in and it doesn't matter on the quality or quantity of treats on offer to lure her she's obviously wise to that one. The other problem is that she is now barking incessantly as soon as dawn breaks. If we leave her crate door open overnight she doesn't bark but we come down to a mess on the floor. I have sought advice from a behaviourist but he didn't seem to grasp what crushed little creatures these ex-puppy farm bitches are and I feel the 'cruel-to-be-kind' approach is counter productive with such confused souls. 

[Penel]

Missie was exactly the same as you are describing - I think Mum used to carry her into the garden, and carry her back in again because of those reasons.  And the barking when it gets light - 'fraid she still does it.
Have you tried a DAP diffuser - these are plug in friendly pheromone thingies that really help some dogs.