Don't know what to think!!!

[jakieboy]

Hiya - you all know me and my two dogs ebbie and finn.

Well, just need all your opinions really about something finn did yesterday.

I had a surprise 50th for my mum   , so lots of people were here including lots of kids, all of whom are used to finn and ebbie, and they are all used to them.  Both me and pete, the kids - all of em, and other adults that are always in and out of my house can take anything off either of the dogs.  The dogs are also used to there always being lots of people here.  

Finn had a bone - he shouldn't of had it, it was cooked but it had obviously fallen off the table, noone would have given it to him cos they all know that finn has problems with certain meats/bones etc plus it was cooked.  Someone finn has never met before (my good mates sister) decided to take it off him - as far as i can tell (as i didn't see it happen but other people told me) she just went to snatch it off him and he snapped at her - drew blood  :cry:  :oops:  :cry: .

Now obviously this is serious , not that she complained but kept saying in a loud voice how she knew she shouldn't of but she's used to dogs that don't do that sort of thing!!!!!!!  she's only had one dog and she is only 6 months old!!!  

I can't help that feel myself though, that this was an isolated incident, and he really didn't mean to, it was a stranger in his house trying to snatch his prize (he was under a chair) and that if it had been one of the kids he wouldn't of done it!  Am I wrong to think this, not long after he was rolling round the floor with some of the kids, near all the food he was waiting for and didn't show any aggression at all.

Everyone else at the party, most knew finn, some didn't all came up to me and told me it was her fault and that finn was gorgeous and lovely, he was in his element all night cos they all babied him and fed him, and that both dogs were a credit to me.

What would you all think!!

Sorry it's been a long one

Nikki xx                    

[lizzy]

Hi Nikki,

That must have been really upsetting for you, but after reading your post I must admit that I have the same feeling as you, that it was a one off .

It sounds as though she might have scared him as she approached him and as it was a tasty bone he has reacted by snapping.

Obviously it is something that has to be dealt with carefully in the future, maybe if you are going to have another party where there are people he does'nt know he could stay at a friends , just a thought :?

Lizzy Molly and Evie                    

[PennyB]

I think if anything it was your sisters friends fault and should've known better and should've had more respect for your dog.

I wouldn't worry too much as its probably a small blip on his character and something to work on in the future if you can.

Bones are a no no in our house mainly because of this even though I can take anything from Ruby bones are seen as the ultimate prize and while I and anyone else could take a bone off her, if it was snatched in that way she could then react by growling or possibly snapping (anything else no problem but a bone is a different matter).                    

[Silver Surfer (indiesnan)]

I agree it was your sisters friend in the wrong here, that is no way to retrieve a bone snatching it away like that!     :?   and the fact that she was a stranger, only made matters worse.    :roll:   I'm sure its just a one off Nikki.   :wink:                    

[Cob-Web]

Ohh Nikki, try not to worry too much, we all know it was a one-off - poor Finn, I'm sure he scared himself as well!

However, regardless of the fact that Finn is the innocent party, there is probably some ruffled feathers to smooth over....have you chatted to the 'bone-stealer' who got nipped, since the party, in a calm, quiet environment?

Difficult though it will be, in the long run it will probably prevent more problems; especially if you are all part of the same community.

Maybe, as she has her own dog, you could suggest that you and the doggies meet up.....so she can meet Finn under different circumstances.

Its just a thought, mind you...you know the person, I don't - it may be, least said, soonest mended.                    

[Magic Star]

Hi Nikkie

I agree with what the others have said, just a one off :wink:

If it makes you feel any better, I had an incident with Indie yesterday as a local country fair :roll:   Indie is very used to kids, as I have two and they always have friends in either from the street or from school and she is a darling with them  

Now yesterday was a different story, we were surrounding a small arena, watching a bird of prey demonstration, when a boy of about 13-14 came crawling along the floor, dressed in a knight-type costume, wielding a shield in his hand, I asked him not to approach Indie with the shield, as she may be frightenend, he put it down and went to stroke her, she backed away from him :roll:   He then picked the shield back up and and approached her again, at this point Indie growled and starting barking at him, baring her teeth :shock:  :shock:  I apologised to him and told him to please leave her, as she was scared of his uniform :?   But to be honest I was mortified   I did not know Indie had this side to her :roll:   I know now on refelction that she was probably just very scared of this boy in his costume :roll:   For the rest of the afternoon she was fine with all the many kids that came to pet her, but it has scared me now, and I am not sure, whether I should forget about it and move on, or seek some kind of help with her???

So Nikki, your certainly not alone, I was quite embarassed posting this, as I thought my dog would never ever do anything like that  We love Indie to bits and shes always been such a treasure with kids, I still trust her 110% with my kids, but I am now a bit worried about her when we are and about :?   I am sure most dogs have a little "go" at one time or another, its probably such a shock for both you and me as its so out of character!                    

[jakieboy]

Hiya - thank you everybody, you've definitely made me feel better about it    

i did talk to her about it, and she seemed ok about it but she isn't someone i see at all, her and my friend have only just started talking to each other again after about 6 years of silence and as their mum and dad were invited to the party my friend asked if she could come as well, and as for the parties, there were only strangers here because it was a surprise party for my mum, most of the time, its just my friends and their kids.  The kids don't pay the dogs much attention really they'd rather be wrecking bedrooms  :?   Finn was fine with all the other strangers in fact he was in his element cos tho mummy    was really busy there were plenty of other laps that he could cuddle up on.  I have seen my friend today and she says her sister is ok about it and knew she shouldn't have done it, and that there were plenty of people around she could of told ie me, pete, my mum or dad or even her sis that finn had a bone so they could of got it so everything is ok there.

I know you should never trust dogs 100%, and I admit that when it's me, pete and the kids, i do trust them - all of them, kids as well as dogs.  I've worked hard to make sure that i can, and like i said there are always get togethers which the dogs enjoy as well - means nice food, and lotsof cuddles usually.  

I am always more observant of the dogs when there are more people round, it was a very emotional party anyway, and there was trouble (not with us honest) but few doors along at the back of my house, had to call police was worried about the kids that lived there - big gang of about 20 youths outside neighbours back garden, caught us watching em and threw metal bar over at our kids, so had to call police, and all this happened with finn when i was out the front seeing the police off.  

So I will just be more aware in future, to keep finn near me - which he normally is, on my feet is his favourite place, but i hadn't sat down at all at that point lol.

mrsbojangles - god you must of felt the same as me, but i think people would find it more understandable when they are scared of a costume or item then what finn did.  

Thanks again everyone  
Nikki xx                    

[taniac]

I believe that any dog given a particular set of circumstances is capable of biting.  We socialise our dogs as best we can but there will still be times when situations arise you haven't covered, like the house full of friends/strangers + stolen bone + feeling cornered + having it snatched or a country fair + sword/shield swinging child dressed as a knight crawling towards her + being on the lead!!  :wink:

Dogs will usually run away rather than fight.  The best we as owners can do is recognise situations where it might cause the dog to fight rather than flight as Emma did with the shield (nothing to be embarrassed about).  I guess the only other thing you could have done is have the boy offer Indie a treat and see if she'd have taken it from him (if you're lucky enough to have some)

I'm sure if Finn wasn't already cornered under a chair he'd have run off with his prize and I'm sure if she'd have swapped the bone for some allowed food or a toy then it wouldn't have happened.

I had never seen Neo be aggressive at all, and then we were walking in the park with my brother and his family.  A french bulldog puppy was jumping around Neo (he was ignoring him) and his owners were trying to get him back, so my brother grabs Neo's collar.. well he must have thought the bulldog had got hold of him cos he turned round and had a go at my brother's hand (luckily no proper biting) and then had a go at the bulldog!  :oops:  I now recognise what he did as just 'telling off' the puppy, but because my brother grabbed him he felt cornered and it looked like he tried to bite him.

I'm sure everyone will have a similar story, so please don't worry too much  :wink:                    

[Becky]

I agree with what others have said.  In my opinion, Emma, Nikki and Tania's dogs all had a good reason to behave as they did.  They may be angels but in the face of a percieved threat, they have few options to show their feelings.  Most humans, myself included, are far less patient, and much quicker to "bite" than these lovely sounding doggies.

[Colin]

I would completely agree with Tania's assessment of both situations. Just to add that another reason not to try and snatch anything away from a dog, particularly food , is the risk of them swallowing the item quickly so as not to have to give it up. Far better to use bribery with something else as a swop. Misty always tries to swallow the evidence, if possible.

Re Indie's growling. Growling isn't actually an aggressive action, quite the opposite really in that it is used as a warning signal to avoid confrontation rather than create it. If Indie had growled at a threatening man carrying a knife you would have been proud at her defending you and herself, it's not easy for a dog to make the distinction the way that we can between a real danger like that and a child in costume.

This article is quite interesting, it shows calming signals that dogs use to each other (and to humans) when stressed.

http://www.dog-games.co.uk/calm.htm                    

[Magic Star]

Nikki, firstly can I apologise for hijacking your thread :oops:  

Thanks all  It has made me feel better about the whole incident yesterday!  I have thought back to how she reacted and she put herself in between my kids and this boy :?  So perhaps this is a protective streak within her??   Your right Colin, had it been a man I would have been proud of her :wink:   Gawd did I just say you were right :shock:  :wink:     I guess Indie was scared, protective and perhaps even excited all at once :wink:

I am a tad apprehensive now :roll: , for our forthcoming camping holiday, as there are usually tons of kids around who cannot help themselves approaching her :?  She has always been fine with this in the past, although, I can't help being a bit concerned about her now after this, will this event have scarred her toward teenage boys??  (mind you I don't suppose shes gonna come across, many shield wielding boys dressed as knights again :roll:  

I'm off to read that article now                    

[jakieboy]

No worries about hijacking the thread - it's obviously something that may happen to lots of people.  And like I said, probably understandable that she was unsure of an item/person she had never seen before so was just warning 'it' that she didn't like it.

I now know the full story tho - my aunt rang (my mum' sis) to congratulate me on a brill party, and i was telling her about it, and how i felt, and she saw it all.

Finn had snuck under the table with his prize - sue doesn't think it was a bone just a piece of meat, he'd backed right under - probably to hide from ebbie rather then us lot.  Friend's sis, saw him presumed it was a bone, so went round to the back of the table and dragged him out by scruff of neck and his collar and he obviously and quite rightly so growled, and then snapped when she carried on dragging him out, he didn't go for her, just bit the air, and she moved at wrong moment and ended up getting nipped.  

So i now feel so much better, it was all her fault, I'm livid that she did that to him, I never grab his scruff, collar yes but only to stop him jumping up someone, and he is used to this, but to grab him there was no need for that at all.  And although he shouldn't of snapped, i cant' blame him, I would of done if i was him as well.  I don't want to fall out with my friend so I'm not going to say to her, but the sis isn't welcome anymore at all.

Finn was punished for nothing - pete made him stay with him by the barbie whilst he was cooking and I was talking to the police, and he hates pete not talking to him, was told to stay and was extremely sad apparantly according to my aunt - she felt sorry for him (of course cockers are really good at that 'feel really sorry for me' look).  I must admit, i'd considered putting him in his pen for the rest of the night up in my room because i thought i couldn't trust him, but most of the people there said not to, and the sis left fairly early. so I 'm glad I didn't now.

thanks again everyone

Nikki xx                    

[lizzy]

Oooh I bet you are so glad that's cleared up!

Poor Finn, I bet he got a fright, some strange woman dragging him by his neck :twisted: she should no better! She had NO right to grab him like that, I can guess who won't be invited to another one of your parties! :wink:

Lizzy Molly and Evie                    

[Luvlylady]

Your right It wasent fins fault in that case he got scared but he did still snap even to  stranger , if you ignored that he may think it was acceptable so you did the right thing being firm.not only that he was taken out of the situation with the lady who would have been moody with him   :shock: . hope your friend understands why you dont want her sis around  :wink:                    

[gc]

as a rule, when you don't know a dog.... don't take the food off his mouth! Call the owner...or do nothing ;-)

imho, it *wasn't* finn's fault. Regarding your question if it was a child, what I've seen, dogs have more torelance with children. But, yes, it would have happened. I always ask kindly my friends with children, when they come into my house, *not* to leave their children unattented, especially when they try to drag Balu's tail/ears. I've seen parents who just laughed at me when I told them that Balu might defense herself and that they shouldn't leave their kids torturing the poor dog... 'yeah right, this dog can bite?', they said... When Balu got really angry and tried to bite (she didn't), then they realised that the dog is not a toy, and eventually ended up telling their kids... 'this is a bad dog, don't go near it'... yeah right... my dog is bad, but your kid who is actually try to kill my dog is ok...an angel!
Parents should train/educate their children to respect the animals. Would the parent like their child to go and take the food off his/her mouth or other's child mouth??? I certainly think *not*.
So, again, it wasn't finn's mistake according to my poor way of thinking  :!:

But I would agree with my co-cockersonliners ( :-) ), that you should also give finn a warning, too ;-)

btw, did he enjoy the bone? :-) :-)