Author Topic: Neutering - Our Dilemma  (Read 6555 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2006, 11:50:30 AM »
Every dog is different and every situation is different but i would not rely on castration alone to solve male agression issues.
In some dogs you may see an instant change, but more likely it will be more gradual.
In the mean time counter conditioning exercises, along with exercises to improve the dogs self control are beneficial in my experience.
Get the owner and dog into good habits and lessen the chance of an agressive incident in the first place is where I start with this.
you need to determine if the dog is fearful or has a confidence problem and if this is the case then taking away the dogs manhood may further weaken his confidence and make him more reactive.
bad behaviour often forms into a habit and the dogs behaviour needs to be modified accordingly to how he reacts.
to rely on the hormonal change in the dog working miracles on its own is in my oppinion leaving things a bit to much to chance.
this is why i would reccomend any castration because of behavioural issues go hand in hand with a behaviour modifation program.
look at little Bayley, he had his bits off last christmas and when I got him was very reactive when on the lead to dogs and people.
I started working on him straight away and now nearly a year later he is a calmer dog but I believe his change has as much to do with the work I've put in and the structure and security he now has as the castration.
One has seemed to go in hand with the other.
Obviously it's impossible for me to say what he would be like if he hadn't been castrated and I'd had done the work with him or the other way round and he had had the chop but no training.
What i do know is that in his case at least it has led to a calmer and well trained dog who i can now take out in public without fear of him reacting as he did.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline CraftySam

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
  • Gender: Female
  • Max, Morgan, Sapphi
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2006, 12:10:24 PM »
In the mean time counter conditioning exercises, along with exercises to improve the dogs self control are beneficial in my experience.
Get the owner and dog into good habits and lessen the chance of an agressive incident in the first place is where I start with this.
you need to determine if the dog is fearful or has a confidence problem and if this is the case then taking away the dogs manhood may further weaken his confidence and make him more reactive.


Mark, what would these exercises be?

He's not a fearful dog at all, he's a confident outgoing boy. I've had a fearful dog in the past and Barney is the complete opposite to her. On Thursday he had contact with well over 25 dogs without any problems at all. Yet when he saw Harvey, who he had snapped at prior to castration, he snapped.
This snapping is something that started a month ago, just as his hormones had started to kick in. Prior to this he'd been socialised with loads of dogs, training every week and on parks walks and village walks.

If you can let me know of exercieses I could do with him I'll definitely do that with him. Thanks.
Sam is mum to - Sapphi (working black Lab 5 1/2 yrs), Max (Golden Retriever 4 yrs) Morgan (American Cocker 2 1/2yrs) and mum in spirit to Barney (English Cocker 3 1/2 yrs now living in Scotland)

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2006, 01:11:08 PM »
Hard to say without seeing the dog.
I usualy reward the dog for any desireable behaviour whilst looking at the object of its reactivity no matter how small a glance at a non reactive distance.
lots of classical conditioning and lots of control work such as relaxed downs or combinations of sits downs and stands to get the dogs focus.
Also I would manage the situation by not putting myself in a situation where my dog might react.
This behaviour can be habit forming so make sure for now that you have control over dog/dog interaction.
Distraction work such as watch me or a hand touch as well.
you could also show the dog that it's reaction will not have the desired results and some trainers advocate the use of stooge dogs to show the dog the error of it's ways.
Angela stockdale is one who specialises in agression and although I don't agree with everything she does it seems to work for her.
she also uses throw chains and spray collars which i must admit i have never dablled in ,but the concept is to distract the dog and teach it that it's behaviour is unnaceptable.
As  a positive trainer it's not the way i would go. This sort of positive punishment is risky and possibly a last resort only to be used by an experienced professional.
If he is lunging to get to this dog turn him around and take him off in the opposite direction as soon as or if possible before he kicks off. look for signs of arousal.
I am working on this sort of issue with an 10 month old GSD at the mo and I have him on a double lead arrangement.
One attached to a head collar and normal collar and the other double ended lead attached to a body harness with a shoulder and chest connection.
I have been doing lots of work on stays and waits when going through gates to improve his impulse control.
I'm not sure whether any of this will be relavent or useful to you, but as I say i take each dog and owner and situation on their merits and work from there.
Mark




Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline CraftySam

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
  • Gender: Female
  • Max, Morgan, Sapphi
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2006, 01:41:59 PM »
Hard to say without seeing the dog.
I usualy reward the dog for any desireable behaviour whilst looking at the object of its reactivity no matter how small a glance at a non reactive distance.
lots of classical conditioning and lots of control work such as relaxed downs or combinations of sits downs and stands to get the dogs focus.
Also I would manage the situation by not putting myself in a situation where my dog might react.
This behaviour can be habit forming so make sure for now that you have control over dog/dog interaction.
Distraction work such as watch me or a hand touch as well.
you could also show the dog that it's reaction will not have the desired results and some trainers advocate the use of stooge dogs to show the dog the error of it's ways.
Angela stockdale is one who specialises in agression and although I don't agree with everything she does it seems to work for her.
she also uses throw chains and spray collars which i must admit i have never dablled in ,but the concept is to distract the dog and teach it that it's behaviour is unnaceptable.
As  a positive trainer it's not the way i would go. This sort of positive punishment is risky and possibly a last resort only to be used by an experienced professional.
If he is lunging to get to this dog turn him around and take him off in the opposite direction as soon as or if possible before he kicks off. look for signs of arousal.
I am working on this sort of issue with an 10 month old GSD at the mo and I have him on a double lead arrangement.
One attached to a head collar and normal collar and the other double ended lead attached to a body harness with a shoulder and chest connection.
I have been doing lots of work on stays and waits when going through gates to improve his impulse control.
I'm not sure whether any of this will be relavent or useful to you, but as I say i take each dog and owner and situation on their merits and work from there.
Mark

Thanks Mark. At the moment, since his castration, his snapping is only a one dog. So I'll keep him away from Harvey for sometime and monitior how he goes with other dogs. Its not a lunging at Harvey with aggression. He came up to Harvey, and Molly the Rottie who was also there, with his usual excitement when meeting dogs after a couple of sniffs he then snapped at Harvey. I didn't see any forms of arousal at all as he approached as he approaches all dogs. I will watch him closely to see how he is when out with other dogs now just in case he takes an exception to another dog.

Habit forming was one of the reasons why I decided to castrate him fairly quickly. I've seen dogs come to training who have got into the habit of lunging and snapping at every dog and its has become a huge problem, alot of the owners have stopped any interaction with dogs which has made matters worse when their dog become confronted with another.

I do alot of training with him, just as you said with sit,stand and downs. I do them at home and while out on walks. Ands stays while other dogs and joggers for example pass. I also do lots of stays at home, and waits while I go in front through a door in my chair and they follow behind and also while out if the path narrows or their bushes in the wait he waits and goes behind me, most of the time without being asked to now. When we come home I ask him to stay at the top of the drive while I go and open the door and get my chair in, which he does perfectly. I've been doing these things from day one, not realising that they help impulse control. So I'll keep doing all of these throught out the day.

If I feel I'm not making progress I may call upon your help if thats ok?
Sam is mum to - Sapphi (working black Lab 5 1/2 yrs), Max (Golden Retriever 4 yrs) Morgan (American Cocker 2 1/2yrs) and mum in spirit to Barney (English Cocker 3 1/2 yrs now living in Scotland)

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2006, 02:15:37 PM »
Happy to help in any way, but it sounds like your doing lots of the right stuff already.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline miche

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2312
    • http://mwcooling.co.uk
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2006, 10:00:10 PM »
Also remember that most working dogs are kennelled, not house dogs. House dogs "get away" with loads more just because.  A kennelled dog only gets attention when the handler lets them out of the kennel, so they are bound to be more attentive for starters.  Also they live with lots of other dogs, even if kennelled singly or as a pair, so they are probably socialised miles more than a house dog.  I am not saying that Ruffy isn't socialised, but that the socialising is different with a kennelled working dog.  And yes I think working dogs are under much tighter control than non working dogs (whether they are working strain or not) - because handlers of working dogs are much stricter.  Those of us that keep our dogs in houses are way too soft on them !!!!

ooh penel how can you say we're softer?

'ang on, gotta adjust the mohair blanket that on the sofa that jarv is curled up on, just to make sure he's completely comfy.... :005: ph34r

 :rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:

I'm not soft on my two either, they are in the kennel and never ever come in the house :shades: ;)

'Fern I'm getting a dead leg can you not lie by my feet instead of on them while I type?'  :005:  (computer must have moved outside to the kennel :005: :005:)

So do you think maybe I'm a bit soft for putting Mikey and Herbie's bedding in the tumble dryer for 10 mins before they go to bed to warm it up for them :005: :005:
Love Michele, Mikey and Herbiexx


Offline DennyK

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1168
    • http://
Re: Neutering - Our Dilemma
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2006, 12:52:38 PM »

[/quote]

So do you think maybe I'm a bit soft for putting Mikey and Herbie's bedding in the tumble dryer for 10 mins before they go to bed to warm it up for them :005: :005:
[/quote]

No: just wasting electricity - put the bedding on the radiator in the hall for half an hour instead. :005: ph34r  (As one half of The Self-Righteous Sisters (backing act to The Righteous Brothers), I want to point out that I don't do that for Pads - even I draw the line at warming his bedding up - I don't even warm my own bloody bedding up...where's that hot water bottle????)