Author Topic: Wont bring me the ball back !  (Read 2276 times)

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Offline Donna_Phil

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Wont bring me the ball back !
« on: November 20, 2006, 12:16:40 PM »
Now,

ever since having freddie he will alsways chase a ball, pick it up, leg it back but run away with it, when I try and get it off him he growls, wants to play tug.............

Any ideas how to get him to fetch so to speak, mollie does is instinctively it would appear....

Offline Millomite

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 12:18:54 PM »
What is Freddie like on the recall? Do you use a whistle?

Offline Donna_Phil

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 12:25:35 PM »
poor really, I do use a whistle yes, he does return more frequent then when using voice commands.

He has been a struggle really, he came from a place that had a multitude of different breeds of dogs, he was thin and very small, he had been homed and then returned as the owners could not cope.

i do believe it was a puppy farm so to speak, he is a lovely tempered dog and responded well to sit, lie down, wait, leave it, which is remarkable, I can leave a treat on the floor and he wont touch it, its just the recall I can get to grips with.

he is also very nervous, I think he has been beat before also, as when I got him if I moved fast he would flinch, and still does every now and again, he also gets nervous when I lower my voice.

Cant help but think his past is preventing a sucessful recall........who knows...mollie will return no matter what it would appear, and we are the only owners, and she came from a reasonable breeder i think

Offline Tracy S

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 12:33:12 PM »


Hi, Louie is 4 months old and we have been working on his recall. When you whistle him and he returns, do you treat him?

You need to make yourself very interesting to the dog so that they want to return to you.  When you call Freddie, sound really excited, like you're playing a game. Use very short distances to start with, even within the house. There is also lots you can do to build his confidcence and trust, there are lots of past threads on here about it ;)

It can take ages to teach good, consistent recall, Louie is still hit and miss, his visit to the cafe during Saturday's meet verifies this :005:

Good luck ;)

Offline Donna_Phil

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 12:43:52 PM »
I just give him a big old fuss, I will start carrying some nice treats for them when the line appears....

Offline anita96

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2006, 01:53:06 PM »
When he comes back with the ball, try not and lunge at him to grab the ball, as this becomes a bigger game than retrieving the ball.  Mocha did do this for a little while I always made sure I started ball throwing in the hall with the door behind me, there is therefore nowhere for them to run away to.  When they come in sit him and make a fuss of him and ignore the ball.  Try and hold back your tempation to snatch the ball, I know I used to have to put my hands in my pockets at first!!  Also sit on the floor so, let the dog jump on you this will make you fun and hopefully make him forget about you wanting the ball.  Once he is better in the hall move out to the garden and so on.  I spend many happy days sitting in a muddy field getting mocha to bring the ball back.  Another way to do it is to work backwards and teach him the hold technique first by using the clicker or treats, therefore once he knows to hold, when they are returning to you, you say hold and they know to hold and wait for release.  I am sure there are people here who can explain it better than I, espically the clicker hold.  The most important point is not to chase him and not to grab.  I also turn away from him and pretend I have something really fun in my hands, curisosity normally gets the better of them!
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Offline raylou

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 03:08:20 PM »
I`m no expert but the best thing we ever did was take Bonnie to dog training classes. The classes we went to were run by the Kennel club and worked on a reward system. There isn`t much Bonnie won`t do for a bit of sausage.  ;)

Admittedly we had Bon from a pup so were at more of an advantage but there were lots of rescue dogs of all ages at our classes and with time, love, praise and patience (and sausage) they turned into really well trained dogs.

I would say if you have the time give it a go, I`m sure you`ll find you love it as much as the dogs do.

Good luck.
Rachael & Bonnie xx

Offline Max X 2

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 04:59:16 PM »
I'm viewing this thread with interest as I have a similar problem (although it's not REALLY a problem!) but Max loves his frisbee & will chase after it, alot of the time skids passed it, often doing a dramatic roll over & then goes back for it & then just lies on it under his front paws ::)

SO...I try the recall & great he comes to me......without the frisbee  :005:

I do have to tell him to "leave it" though as it's the only toy he seems to want to play tug with.  ::)
Maxine owned by Max & Harry

Offline DennyK

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 01:35:18 PM »
Blimey - this brings back memories!  Paddy learnt everything but "fetch" was a totally alien concept to him - ran, caught the toy/ball/whatever, came back part way, lay down and chewed it.  Would come back to me - but minus the toy.

It was mind-numbing but here's what I was told to do - slow, boring but it has worked, although he still pauses before brining things back to think about where his best interests lie.

1.  Chase: a lot of advice given is never, ever play chase with your dog otherwise you'll b***** up the recall and fetch mechanisms.  Good advice if you've never started.  Only I'd already started playing chase in the living room with Paddy by the time I got this advice.  Then I found advice from Jean Donaldson in "The Culture Clash" which said that you can play chase but with certain rules - one toy only, which is only ever used for chase games (i.e. you chasing dog) - and the dog has to sit/down/stay whenever you tell it to, otherwise you stop the game.  You also use one phrase/tone of voice ONLY when chasing.  Mine is (spoken like a simpleton, frankly) "Gimme, gimme, gimme") - and the toy is a soft furry ball thing.  Any other time or toy that Pads runs away with a toy - I walk in opposite direction.  Treat him whenever (mid official chase game) he obeys the sit and drop commands and really high-pitched squeals of "well done, good boy".  (Told you I sounded like a simp).

2.  Fetch: my real problem with Pads was/is that he is so food motivated, when I had treats to reward him for the right response, it was beyond his little lemon brain's understanding that he would move an inch further from the food he wanted.  So "sit", "Down" etc - meant him staying where he was, near the food.  Even "stay" and "wait" meant him being still and the food moving away.  But "fetch" means him voluntarily leaving the food behind.  No way, Jose or Hose B.  So: excruciatingly slow - using clicker and treat, hold the toy you want him to fetch.  When his nose touches the toy - click & treat.  Do this several times, then put the toy down on the ground a few inches from you.  When he makes ANY move towards the toy with his head - click and treat.  timing is really important and I got it wrong (too slow or anticipating his moves) quite a bit to start with.  After a few goes - he has to do more, so you want him to mouth the toy.  Click and treat.  Repeat, rewarding/reinforcing the right responses, completely ignoring (look over his head, look away etc) any wrong/blank responses.  Then wait to click and treat till he gets his mouth around the toy and picks it up.  Click & treat.  Repeat.  Then throw the toy a foot further away.  Click and treat for any active, clear movement towards the toy.  Build up the response (mouthing the toy, then picking it up - even for a second - in his mouth) before you'll click and treat.  To get to this took me about two weeks of doing it for five minutes per session twice a night.  It just extends further.  When he's picking up/carrying the toy from further away, he knows you're still holding the goodies.  If he drops it and trots back for a reward when you've got beyond that stage - ignore him, or just end the game and ask him to sit or do something easy, click and treat then end the game.  When he's taking just a few steps back in your direction at any stage of this - give him the "BINGO" reward - several "high taste" treats.  That's when I introduced the command "fetch".

After about three weeks, I saw real improvements in Paddy but there were two "step change" events that happened.  The first was that the petsitter started playing fetch with him, and her two dogs were already trained to it, so he had their example - and competition for the toy and the treat, so that made a massive improvement in a matter of days.  Second one was getting one of those "chuck-it" toys for flinging tennis balls a long way.  Paddy thinks this is the best fun in the world, but almost instantly cottoned on to the fact that I can't chuck it if I don't have it to chuck.  So he brings it back, but I still have to swap a treat for the ball to be dropped.  he's never going to happily hand over "his" toy - yet he's not otherwise a resource guarder and I can ask him to drop anything (including the beer bottle cap he got hold of on Sunday) and he'll do it without the treat.  But if the word "fetch" has been uttered: you'd better pay up, now, lady!

Hope that helps.  Sadly - no quick cure!

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Denise

Penel

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 08:45:03 AM »
You need two balls, so that he'll come back with the first one, as soon as he sees you have another one, he'll drop the first one.   ;)  Throw the 2nd one for the reward for dropping the first one, etc etc....

Offline sportsmonki

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 11:28:42 AM »
I'd suggest similar to penel (and the balls need to be exactly the same).

However, if he is like Storm and once he has the toy he wants to keep it maybe try swopping the ball for a tasty treat.  He has to drop the toy to open his mouth to eat  :005: Then you can put a command to it e.g. 'out'/'give'. 

Also, try doing it is a small area.  give him the toy to hold, swop it for a sweetie...give the toy back to him...repeat.

He'll soon get the idea that giving up the toy is good as he gets treats and is given the toy back afterwards.  Eventually he should try to bring you the toy...so he can get his treat  ;)

Offline DennyK

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2006, 03:23:35 PM »
You need two balls, so that he'll come back with the first one, as soon as he sees you have another one, he'll drop the first one.   ;)  Throw the 2nd one for the reward for dropping the first one, etc etc....

Oh sod and damn and blast.  You mean I could have done it in 3 days not 3 weeks?????  Oh grrrrrrrrr. >:D

Penel

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 03:24:24 PM »
Probly 3 hours  :005: :005: :005:

Offline DennyK

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 03:33:18 PM »
Nah: Paddy ain't that bright (and neither am I.....).  Still, my APDT trainers at Alpha couldn't get him to fetch either!

Penel

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Re: Wont bring me the ball back !
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2006, 04:26:43 PM »
Tilly would never ever ever fetch anything at the training club we went to..... and yet my trainer (who is also my mate) would come round and watch her retrieving her fave toys over and over and over again  ;)  she just wouldn't do it at the club !