ignoring honey

[Helen]

When it comes to Nilif I suppose I conform  more to SILAF. (somethings in life are free as long as the dog don't take the mickey) for instance I would not ignore my dog if he came up to me with his toy and asked me to play.
If I want I play, If I don't feel that way inclined I say sorry not now and carry on with what I'm doing.
My dogs usually perform a behaviour to get a treat, but sometimes they get one just for being my buddies  who I live with.
 

Mark I am sooooooooooooo glad you said that!!  I have used some Nilif tactics but mainly as a substitute for please and thankyou, I think manners are important but I have never felt comfortable about all of Nilif.  The idea that everything has to be earned seemed a bit OTT so I never even bothered with that bit!!  I too am of the opinion that actually they are my mates and as such have the right to make some of their own decisions - but it is good to have my thoughts concurred with by someone who I respect    Thought maybe I'd missed the point somewhere and everyone understood it except me 

ME TOO!!! and thank you Penel and Shona Joy for confirming my thoughts - full on NILIF never sat well with me but was a bit chicken to say...

mark - get your pc fixed - need a pic update of your lovely boys

[Colin]

My concern would be the application of *SILIF* as a behaviour modification technique, when consistency is the one of the most important requirements for training dogs 

It's worked fine with my two - although it does depend on the dog, the situation and the extent of the attention-seeking I guess. With Penny and her foster dogs I can see how a more liberal use of NILIF/SILIF may cause problems. I've had a third Cocker come to stay a few times for a day or two and had to use a slightly more rigid approach than I'd use with my own dogs - otherwise the visiting dog would try and sit on my lap or at my feet all day, putting a barrier between me and Jimmy and Misty.

I'd agree with Mark where he says he always gives some attention when one of his dogs brings a toy - I'd never ignore that, even if it just means me throwing it a couple of times. An easy mistake to make with pups is to take advantage of them playing with their own toys to go and do other things. A pup would then quickly realise that playing with it's own toy means it gets no interaction, yet playing with a shoe, or something else it's not supposed to have, results in a fun chase. Although having said that, there are limits - my neice has a Jack Russell that would keep bringing back a toy to be thrown for literally hours one end if you didn't call an end to the game. Different things work for different dogs, so I guess it's a matter of mixing and matching methods to suit - a good trainer would likely realise that there's no "one cap fits all" solution and would adapt different methods as needed. I think NILF is a good framework though - as long as not taken to extremes.

Re the ignoring - when Jimmy was a pup I tried the Jan Fennel method ( which is NILIF x 10 ) and it made him really subdued, he'd just lie and stare at me suspiciously unable to figure out what was going on. I quickly abandoned it as he even stopped coming over to me indoors when I called his name, when he did come to me he kind of slunk along warily. It definitely had an adverse effect on him, which is why I've never fully taken onboard the NILIF ethos of only allowing interaction on the owner's say so.  

[Elisa]

When it comes to Nilif I suppose I conform  more to SILAF. (somethings in life are free as long as the dog don't take the mickey) for instance I would not ignore my dog if he came up to me with his toy and asked me to play.
If I want I play, If I don't feel that way inclined I say sorry not now and carry on with what I'm doing.
My dogs usually perform a behaviour to get a treat, but sometimes they get one just for being my buddies  who I live with.
 

Mark I am sooooooooooooo glad you said that!!  I have used some Nilif tactics but mainly as a substitute for please and thankyou, I think manners are important but I have never felt comfortable about all of Nilif.  The idea that everything has to be earned seemed a bit OTT so I never even bothered with that bit!!  I too am of the opinion that actually they are my mates and as such have the right to make some of their own decisions - but it is good to have my thoughts concurred with by someone who I respect    Thought maybe I'd missed the point somewhere and everyone understood it except me 

This is exactly how I feel.  Thank you for explaining it so well 

Everybody is different and every dog is different, and what may work for some won't work for others, it's not totally for me, although I use bits and pieces. 

[DennyK]

KB: I think Honey sounds lovely and the issues (not "problems") are just part of being still quite young, needing the steadiness that you're already seeing some early results with and being part of a busy, child- full, household.  You're being kind but firm and you know your own dog. 

I've been really pleasantly surprised to read about the NILIF issue for instance: I've been using this with Paddy for a few weeks now.  Initially, I saw an improvement in manners in the few areas where I'd been inconsistent - e.g. sitting to have his lead put on and waiting by door instead of trying to jump up all the time.  But as the weeks have progressed, I've seen a very gentle, watchful little dog who loves fun turning into a quieter watcher, who just hasn't seemed on top form.  My husband calls him a "deep breather" - his Lancashire term for a deep thinking little dog, and I think that my full-on NILIF may be upsetting him.  The manners have stayed better (not 100% in the few areas of concern but much better) but his mood seems worse.  I think I'll try Mark's "SILIF" approach and see what happens to his mood.  I know I've found it more of a strain but I've been conscious that I shouldn't project my wants/needs for fussing etc onto Pads. 

This thread has reassured me that sometimes, we each need to try trusting our instinct about our dogs and see where it gets us - it's not as if there is a "one size fits all" solution simply because dogs aren't Identikit creatures.  NILIF clearly works well for many of our dogs on here - it's not any disrepect to the method or people who've used it.  Just typical that some dogs will need degrees of treatment.

I'll report back in a week or so on any changes in a separate thread.

Keep your chin up with Honey - she already sounds lovely and you're 90% there with her, 90% of the time. 

Denise

[Woody's Mum]

Don't want to jump on the bandwagon but I think I use SILIF too. I started the NILIF appraoch when Daisy was younger as she was a testy little madame but I wasn't totally consistant as she is just too sweet! I've never had to so much as raise my voice at Woody as he is a sensitive little soul and very very obedient.

I honestly think I used anything close to NILIF on Woody he wouldn't be able to cope, but Daisy ignored most of it completely.

So, lots of answers on here for you and Honey! Hope your not too confuddled! I think you will work it out for yourselves, as someone else said, each dog is an individual and you do have to be more strict with some than others.

Good Luck 

[Cob-Web]

.he was awful in the vets yesterday,really quite naughty coz he didn't want that thingy stuck in his sore ear.the vet asked me if i had any concerns about his aggression >:(i was shocked as he wasn't being aggressive just in pain.he was very wriggly and kept trying to move my hand away with his mouth.

This happened to me and Molo when he went to have a lumpectomy - the vet recommended a referral to the behavouriorist as he was "snappy and controlling"  I was mortified - and very annoyed as I couldn't speak to anyone who had actually SEEN the behaviour. Eventually, when we went back to have his stiches out, I saw what they meant - he was swinging his head round with growl when the wound was touched 

I came to the conclusion that the vets were being unrealistic; a view which was confirmed when we saw a more senior partner who said he was behaving perfectly normally for a dog 


I suppose the contradictions in advice depends on how people here have used NILIF with their dogs 
Having applied it as part of a specific behaviour modification technique in the past, and now using it day to day with Molo who has very few hang-ups, I think there is a difference. I suppose when I recommend it, it is in situations where people want to see a change in their dogs behaviour - so the more consistant NILIF seems more appropriate to me - after all, it can always be relaxed into SILIF if the dog responds well 

[Colin]

I can remember people expressing doubts about some aspects of NILIF on here before, I recall doing it myself on this thread...

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=9746.0

Rachel, if it's worked well with Molo that's great. Maybe what we need is someone to come up with a SILIF ( or is it SILAF ) article that we can easily refer people to  - it's interesting that so many of us have abandoned the stricter aspects of NILIF, so it would be handy to have an alternative to recommend. Mark ? 

[PennyB]

I can remember people expressing doubts about some aspects of NILIF on here before, I recall doing it myself on this thread...

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=9746.0

Rachel, if it's worked well with Molo that's great. Maybe what we need is someone to come up with a SILIF ( or is it SILAF ) article that we can easily refer people to  - it's interesting that so many of us have abandoned the stricter aspects of NILIF, so it would be handy to have an alternative to recommend. Mark ? 

As Rachel suggests though NILIF is often only mentioned in behaviour threads in relation to when dogs/owners are having problems and so there is a need there at least for a consistent approach at that time (and when the behaviour arises again may be).

[Cob-Web]

I can remember people expressing doubts about some aspects of NILIF on here before, I recall doing it myself on this thread...

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=9746.0

Rachel, if it's worked well with Molo that's great. Maybe what we need is someone to come up with a SILIF ( or is it SILAF ) article that we can easily refer people to  - it's interesting that so many of us have abandoned the stricter aspects of NILIF, so it would be handy to have an alternative to recommend. Mark ? 

But can it be used in cases where behaviour modification is required? There are research papers and case studies that evidence the success of NILIF, can the same be said for NILAF?

A watered down version of NILIF that suits one dog may not suit another  - e.g. it might be no big deal for one dog to get attention when he asks for it, but for another dog this may well be a trigger for their problem behaviour.
The SILAF approach will vary depending on the dog, and the only way of finding out what *works* would be to apply NILIF and then reintroduce different compromises to look for any re-emergence of the unwanted behaviour 

[Colin]

Penny and Rachel - oh yes I agree. I meant a SILIF article would be handy alongside the NILIF ones, not as a replacement.

In cases such as KB describes whereby she's inadvertantly been using "Everything In Life Is Free" then I'd agree that a stricter regime may be more appropriate than the method I've used with my dogs. But as the full NILIF approach can have a detrimental effect on some of our dogs then it would be nice to show that there is another way, rather than just having this one method that is curently recommended. ( Not sure I've been explaining myself too well on this thread - which would rule me out of being the person to write such an article.  )

[Joelf]

Okay I admit it- our dogs are throughly spoilt!!!

Robert tends to be softer with them than me so consequently they pester him more for attention!

However like most of the other posters I use bits of NILIF & improvise the rest. However I have to say that most of the time they are pretty good (like most dogs they have their moments!) I went out walking with a friend on Tuesday & his dog is fantastically well-behaved & obedient.....she could quite easily put my dogs to shame!!

[Top Barks]

I can remember people expressing doubts about some aspects of NILIF on here before, I recall doing it myself on this thread...

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=9746.0

Rachel, if it's worked well with Molo that's great. Maybe what we need is someone to come up with a SILIF ( or is it SILAF ) article that we can easily refer people to  - it's interesting that so many of us have abandoned the stricter aspects of NILIF, so it would be handy to have an alternative to recommend. Mark ? 

Colin I don't know of any articles it's just the way I live with my dogs.
If I want a behaviour to happen then I use consistant methods until a habit is formed and with certain behaviours this will always be the case. For instance the boys don't go out until they are sitting by the back door and then only when they are called to do so by name.This is so I don't get knocked over in the mad rush.
My boys are put into a sit when they jump out of the car but this is for safety and not because they have to earn the right to run off lead.
however if I had a dog that would not wait in position then I would use consistant training methods to get what i wanted while the dog would learn the behaviour that earned him the reward of running free. This is simply using the premack principle you do something for me and i'll do this in return.

I try to be consistant in cues and I vary my rewards.

I can see how nilif will be effective with a dog with certain issues as some dogs need  the upmost consistency to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not but there must come a point in most relationships where the rules could be relaxed just a little.
Once again some people who use Nilif use this method as a form of rank reduction or at least that's what they believe and we must be careful not to tar all dogs with behavioural issues as donminant as many are indeed far from it. However it is a long way from physical punishment.
Yes, I Ignore my dogs if they're rude sometimes ,but more often than not I'll give them something else to do.
I am a leader but I do not want to dominate my dogs.
My dogs do as I wish and are well behaved so I do not see it as an issue If one comes up to me with a toy and trys to enguage me in play (and it's usually Bayley).
What works for me won't work for all and I think if you have the average dog or work closely with them then Nilif is not neccessary at all times.
If you have dogs with issues then I might look at each situation  on its own merits and posibly use this method. Saying that a friend of mine used NILIF on a problem dog, but when it came to chewing the electrical cables on the TV then there was no way she could ignore it.
Nilif for most dogs I do not believe needs to be a long drawn out process as it may be possible that the dog could suffer from depression although I don't have evidence to back that up.
Would you get depressed if you led that lifestyle for your whole life?
 If it works for you then don't fix what aint broken.
My dogs see me as the source of all things good which makes for a really strong bond between us.
I love Bayley's cheeky attempts to get me to play; in fact when we do play I have to be sooo careful not to get sucked in to his little game and play him at my own.
I started training a retrieve with him this week and he was getting so close to returning a dropped item to hand and I found my self briefly reaching out to take the item which he thought was great and said sod you and ran out of reach.
I won however in the end as the next time I turned my back on him and moved away which had the desired effect of him literally thrusting the article into my hands.
It's always the clever ones that cause us problems in my experience.
Every dog/owner relationship is unique and in my case I like to give my dogs the chance to express their personalities.

Hope this answers Rachel's question as well as to how I feel about Nilif.

Mark

[Top Barks]

.he was awful in the vets yesterday,really quite naughty coz he didn't want that thingy stuck in his sore ear.the vet asked me if i had any concerns about his aggression >:(i was shocked as he wasn't being aggressive just in pain.he was very wriggly and kept trying to move my hand away with his mouth.



I suppose the contradictions in advice depends on how people here have used NILIF with their dogs 
Having applied it as part of a specific behaviour modification technique in the past, and now using it day to day with Molo who has very few hang-ups, I think there is a difference. I suppose when I recommend it, it is in situations where people want to see a change in their dogs behaviour - so the more consistant NILIF seems more appropriate to me - after all, it can always be relaxed into SILIF if the dog responds well 





Sorry, only just read this post and in most cases I would agree with you Rachel, but when you are training dogs in peoples houses you often have to tailor techniques to suit the individual so without seeing the dog owner relationship I think it is difficult to advise one method over another. what works for one might not work for another.
Wouldn't it be simple if there was a one fix all method.
Save me time doing my degree.

[Cob-Web]

Thanks Mark, some food for thought...

 For instance the boys don't go out until they are sitting by the back door and then only when they are called to do so by name.This is so I don't get knocked over in the mad rush.
My boys are put into a sit when they jump out of the car but this is for safety and not because they have to earn the right to run off lead.

I do the same things for the same reasons; I have always refered to this as part of the NILIF technique as Molo's perception is that he is not rewarded until he *works* for it - maybe I have got totally the wrong end of the stick 

I can see how nilif will be effective with a dog with certain issues as some dogs need  the upmost consistency to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not but there must come a point in most relationships where the rules could be relaxed just a little.
Once again some people who use Nilif use this method as a form of rank reduction or at least that's what they believe and we must be careful not to tar all dogs with behavioural issues as donminant as many are indeed far from it. However it is a long way from physical punishment.

When NILIF was introduced to me in the early 90's (before it had a name  ), it was with the intent of *rank reduction*, and was recommneded alongside dominance rolls and check chains  Funnily enough, NILIF worked but the rolling and checking didn't  I now know that the dog I had was fear aggressive, not dominant; and NILIF provided her with the stability and consistancy she needed to feel secure. I don't know if she considered me her leader, or whether it just helped her understand what I expected of her   In her case, it was not possible to *relax* the rules - but as a rescue with an unknown past, and neglect injuries that finally led her to be put to sleep, I suppose she could be considered extreme example - although from reading many posts about rescue dogs (here and on DP), I'm not so sure she was all that unusual

Saying that a friend of mine used NILIF on a problem dog, but when it came to chewing the electrical cables on the TV then there was no way she could ignore it.

Again, forgive me if have the wrong end of the stick - but I don't think NILIF endorses ignoring, but preventing, these situations???

Nilif for most dogs I do not believe needs to be a long drawn out process as it may be possible that the dog could suffer from depression although I don't have evidence to back that up.
Would you get depressed if you led that lifestyle for your whole life?

Ah, but I'm not a dog..........
I strongly believe that expecting dogs to behave like humans, and imposing human emotions onto dogs, leads to most of the misunderstandings between Mans Best Friend and Man 


Thanks again for your thoughts Mark - it is definitely a subject that will continue to facinate me 

Edited to add - just seen your last post, Mark - my advise has always been to seek the advice of an experienced behaviourist, and "in the mean time", a NILIF approach is a good starting point  I have never seen any suggestion that it could be counter-productive until now, which is why the mention of depression shocked me 

[Top Barks]

Hi Rachel, Surely Parts of  Nilif is just based on Premack then ? All I am arguing is that it does not need to be followed rigidly for every dog in every situation.
I use these methods but I do not Practice Nilif in every situation because I don't need to.

I agree the Nilif worked in the 90's and still does today, but Punishment not that I condone it  does work in some cases where the alpha rolls and other harsh methods are used. This all to often at a cost to the dog /handler bond?
The problem with punishment is you are supposed to use punishment so that the dog will never perform the behaviour again which is why some punishers are harsh.
What do you do if the dog then performs the action despite you having doled out the harshest punishment possible? where do you go from there? To much baggage with punishment and nothing to redirect the dog to something better which is why it doesn't work for me.
  The danger is that some  inexperienced people and trainers could still use the more harsh methods whilst practising Nilif because they don't understand the dogs motivation to perform certain behaviours.
There are some people That I have seen, who use Nilif that have also used Alpha rolls and scruff shakes.  These are trainers who should in my oppinion know better.  In fact seeing a well known trainer act like this and seeing how she treated her dogs put me off doing a work placement with her.This was only last autumn
It was If She didn't know where to stop.

I am not saying NILIF is bad, far from it, or that everyone who practices it rigidly is a power crazed dictator of their dogs, but I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN.

I agree that Nilif does endorse preventing situations but again I just call it managing my dogs and trying not to put them in a position to fail in the first place which many inexperienced owners through lack of understanding of the dogs need and motivation to perform certain behaviours might struggle with.

And no I am not a dog and I do not think like a dog and you are correct it is not right to attach human emotion to our four footed friends but are you telling me that you can not tell by the body language your dog displays whether he is up or down?
I completley agree also it is the forcing of human values on our dogs that does cause the problems in a lot of cases.
Better education of the canine way is in my view so important.
We are obviously not a million miles away from each other in our beliefs and I have found this thread very interesting Rachel Thankyou!