Serious advice/opinions needed please

[DennyK]

Bagpuss - I'd second what's been said about getting in a behaviourist, NOT a trainer.  Trainers are different to behaviourists.  Some of the APDT trainers are also cross-qualified behaviourists, but not all.

As others have said - where are you based?  Some of the aces on the board may be able to recommend someone in your area/region.

[Top Barks]

Bagpuss - I'd second what's been said about getting in a behaviourist, NOT a trainer.  Trainers are different to behaviourists.  Some of the APDT trainers are also cross-qualified behaviourists, but not all.

As others have said - where are you based?  Some of the aces on the board may be able to recommend someone in your area/region.

Firstly I would just like to agree that your vet's comment was highly irresponsible and secondly well done you for asking for advice which a crap owner would certainly not do!
I tend to agree with Denise that you need a behaviourist or someone who is a trainer who takes on behaviour work through veterinary refferal although given your vets comments i wouldn't let him refer me to my own GP if my arm was falling off.
The APDT list is a good place to start but look for someone with a behavioural background. You could also try the APBC or look for some one with the COAPE diploma.( they will have the letters Dip CABT after their name)
Speak to the trainer/ behaviourist and see what they advise.
This does not sound like a case requiring euthanasia at this stage which is easy for me to say i appreciate but getting good educated help should be your first goal to helping you to a better relationship with your dog.
Best of luck.
Mark
Top Barks DogTraining and a member of the APDT

[ali]

i just wanted to say well done you for being a responsible owner and trying to work through things with charlie.

i definitely agree with everyone who is suggesting consulting a trained pro about charlie's behaviour. i have no experience at all in guarding but i do know that barkley (who is 15 months and who i've had since a pup) can get quite snappy when he is warning us off for some reason. i spend more time with him than my OH does so i'm better at reading the signs. the other day, he'd jumped into the front of the car and rather than persisting with enticing him out, my OH reached in to usher him out. it was a stupid move and barkley snapped at him, unusually actually catching him on the wrist this time. it didn't break the skin but it gave my OH a real shock. i know that barkley was warning him beforehand, and i plan to deal with it by working on other ways to encourage him to move from somewhere that he'd rather stay, but if he continues to have issues like this then i am prepared to accept that he can't ever be completely trusted with youngsters.

i think you need to be prepared to be very patient and to really learn to read his actions and warnings in the meantime. he has no other way of communicating his displeasure about something. therefore, i feel that if i were in your shoes i really would make sure that charlie isn't left unsupervised with your kids until you know for sure that everyone, including the dog and kids, knows the rules of engagement.

on the chocolate issue, i think these things are only poisonous in large amounts.

[Bagpuss]

Firstly, thanks to everyone for your advice and encouragement, and for your kind words.

It wasn't actually the vet who gave that advice - it was whoever answered the 'phone at the vets surgery.  My mother-in-law has used this vet's practice since 1979 and it's also been used by my husbands brother/sister-in-law, and the vets themselves have always been excellent.  Perhaps I should have asked to speak to an actual vet, but I was in a bit of a panic and not thinking clearly.

My husband is going to speak to the dog trainer that his Mum uses, to see whether they can recommend a behaviourist in our area.

In the mean time, we've decided (as also advised on here) that we will ensure we are careful about food until we have moved forward a little, so the Kong is going in the cupboard for now.

I've had a quick look at the APDT site but there don't seem to be any behaviourists listed in our area - we live near Bath.  If anyone knows of anybody suitable, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks again for the advice. I look at Charlie and I can't believe he did what he did.  Tonight he continues to be his normal, loving, gorgeous self.

Thanks again, everyone. 

[spanielcrazy]

It wasn't actually the vet who gave that advice - it was whoever answered the 'phone at the vets surgery. 

You might want to mention that to your vet next time you speak with them. They may not be aware that their office people are spouting nonsense to their clients! 

Good luck with  Charlie. You can do this! While it is scary it's not the end of the world. Patience and persistance will help you all get to where you want to be!

[Jan/Billy]

I know I probably sound like a crap owner, but it's my first time, and it's being a steep learning curve.

You certainly don't sound like a crap owner, you sound like a very responsible and caring owner, or you wouldn't be posting on COL asking for advice. You are also right that for a first time dog owner with what is effectively a rescue dog you are going to go through a steep learning curve over and above those who are lucky enough to have a perfectly well adjusted rescue dog (they do exist-but no dog is perfect) Firstly, hard as it may be at the moment-don't panic. You have not suddenly found yourself with a vicious dog that will attack for no reason. He was guarding something that was of high value to him and growled to warn you. That is perfectly normal (though normally unacceptable to humans) dog behavior. What you are experiencing is resource guarding which is fairly common in rescue dogs who did not get adequate training as a pup. You can approach this in several ways.  Firstly and most importantly I agree with Rachel that a behaviourist will ultimately be the way to go. Make sure you get a good one who is properly qualified and don't confuse them with a trainer which are different entirely  It will be money well spent. They will observe your interactions and his reaction to you and give advice tailored to you and your family. Secondly get and read a copy of Mine by Jean Donaldson a guide to resource guarding. It will help you to undrestand the way a dog thinks. Thirdly do have a read of other behaviour threads on here, Charlies behaviour is not that unusual. I will try and post some links to threads here in a moment. Until you get this sorted I would advise you to stop giving treats for a while and never try to take food away from your dog.

Completely agree 

I think the first time we experience any kind of aggressiveness from our pets it's worrying. I remember the first time Billy snapped at me I was absolutely mortified 

Hope you can find a good behaviorist, a word of advice, if your behaviorist tries to tell you your dog is "being dominant" & you need to " show it who's boss" etc then walk away 

I agree about the  Jean Donaldson book "mine", well worth a read 

[Penel]

Until you get the behaviourist sorted - don't take food away from him, don't take anything away from him (unless its a life or death matter!), without realising it, you (or his previous homes) have taught him to guard "stuff". 
See it this way - I love chocolate (true!).  I go to stay at a friend's house (someone I don't know very well), and every day they put a lovely big plate of Green and Blacks in front of me.  After letting me eat a bit, on day one they take it away from me.  Hmm I am a bit surprised but oh well.  Day two, more chocolate - oh good, they are letting me have some more.  But yet again, they take it away.  I begin to consider a) eating it really fast or b) I know I'll try and hide it when they come to take it off me.  They come, force me away from it and take my chocolate...... After about a week, I'm onto them, I know what they are up to.  They are gonna give me the stuff I like most in the world, then they are gonna take it off me.  Well, I'll show em.  Next time they do that I'm gonna give them a good slap, that'll stop them.  And - it did    I slapped them, and they didn't take my chocolate.  (Are you still with me ?  ).  So, tomorrow, I'll slap them again, cos it worked today.... and if they still try, perhaps I'll slap them harder the next time.....

OK I know I'm being silly but I'm trying to explain it to you in terms that are easily understandable from a human point of view. 

Now if every day I was at this friend's house, and they just gave me my chocolate and let me eat it, without interfering, I'd be so much happier and relaxed, I might even share it with them.  And - what about if they gave me a bit more when I'd finished it - I'd think WOW I really like this person.....

[kb]

You are not a crap owner - just a concerned one and your stress is probably exacerbated by the fact that you have found out thatthe previous owner was not completely truthful about the dog's history. That makes you think there is something to hide even if there isn't

Any dog can guard food, so you are not alone. Our little madam is a food guarder - not in her dish but high value things like raw hide bones and human food. We used to go the line of trading food items and removing her bone and taknig it back , but it didn't work. We never take food she has stolen - even though it is tempting to do so.

Don't worry too much about the chocolate - a small amount should not do too much harm.

I can really vouch for what Penel says, because she gave us the same advice. When she she had a bone, I armed myself with treats - every now and then I chucked a few at her, but not interacting with her, when she was eating her bone to make her see that we were not a threat to her - actually we were going to give her more - so she had nothing to fear. At first she was a bit bemused by this - I think she thought it was her lucky day - but within a short time, she was actually coming over to me and lying beside me with her bone.

She still sometimes guards - but we go back to the treats - but I have to say I do say to the kids Honeys got a bone, stay away from her.They have to learn to respect her space when she is eating too. I mix up ignoring her or throwing the treats at her, while still ignoring her. The look on her face is something when she gets the treats as well as the bone . I have become more relaxed about it and sometimes just say "whatever" - she still brings it and lies at my feet and I just let her get on with it.

I have to go now - I have been reliably informed that "the ginger one" has taken my daughter's dirty pants into the garden - that'll teach her to not put them in the laundry basket. I will of course have to retrieve these by swapping for something incase she swallows them like she did with a sock the other week

[Bagpuss]

Just to let you know, we have an appointment with a Behaviourist at Claverton Down Cats and Dogs home on Monday.  They are going to assess Charlie, and give us some advice.

Thanks again to everyone for your replies.

Janet   

[Elisa]

That's good news.  Good luck for Monday and please let us know how it goes 

[happydog]

Wonderful! Do let us know how you get on and remember  Jan/Billy's words of wisdom.

Hope you can find a good behaviorist, a word of advice, if your behaviorist tries to tell you your dog is "being dominant" & you need to " show it who's boss" etc then walk away 

I agree about the  Jean Donaldson book "mine", well worth a read 

[Top Barks]

Best of luck for Monday do let us know what they suggest

[cazza]

Good luck for Monday, 

[Bagpuss]

Charlie has just peed in the hallway.       Loads of it too.  He'd not long been back from a long walk.  The backdoor was open.  He doesn't like going outside alone, but he didn't tell me he needed to go. 

I took him outside and he hid in the children's plastic play tunnel.  Then, he crept back indoors and got into his bed.   I didn't shout (although I wanted to), but he obviously knew he'd done wrong.

Seems the honeymoon period is well and truly over.   

Thanks for the good wishes everyone.  I will update tomorrow after he's been to the behaviourist.

[cdpops]

Hi
I am not an expert but it sounds like Charlie may be quite anxious and frightened. My Charlie used to do the same and he as "diagnosed" as fear aggresive. He is spooked by so many things and experiences, it is sometimes hard to remeber them all.
I hope you get to the bottom of things at your meeting tomorrow, good luck to you both.