Oh Help....BARF again......I think its all going wrong.

[CraftySam]

Today they all have diarrhea again.  They did yesterday too.  Also yesterday Sapphi and Barney were sick first thing, mostly bile and bits of bones. Max wasn't but he's the one who carefully chews his bones properly, so I wondered if they were sick because they hadn't chewed their bones properly. It was the first time I hadn't bashed the chicken wings before giving them.

I expected some upset tums when we started and I read that they could go through a detox. They've been on it a week and a half now. For the first three days the were on the AMP blocks and they are absolutely fine on them.
I can't seem to pinpoint what it could be thats upsetting them. Sometimes they are ok with chicken wings sometimes not. I'm wondering about the mince, its really good quality as my friends OH is a chef and gets it cheap and I'm wondering if its too rich ( don't even know if thats possible!) should I go back to the frozen mince from PAH which has the ground bone in it?
I know they had the runs after sardines, pilchards & egg. This week I'm going to just use sardines & egg and see how they are. They were ok with offal.

This is what I will feed them this week (last week was much the same there were a couple more portions of lamb ribs though), can anyone see anything that needs changing?

Chicken Wings 6 x a week ( will be four when I can sort out a supplier for lamb ribs or I'll switch to pork)
Lamb Ribs x 1 (left over from last week)
Beef Mince & Veg x 3 a week
Offal (Lambs Liver, Lamb Kidney & Lamb Heart) & Veg 2 x a week
Sardines in tomato sauce & egg 1 x a week
AMP Blocks (this week only to replace ribs) 1 x a week.

I did a mammoth veg & fruit whizzing session, in their veg portion is carrot, cauliflower, parsnip, suede, spring cabbage, spinach, tomato, pear, apple, orange, broccoli, red green and yellow pepper. I think that is everything.

The only think I can think of is to get them back on the blocks, and then feed one food type say mince and veg and see what effects them.

I really don't want to stop feeding them BARF.

Does anyone have any ideas?

By the way Barney & Max are fine in themselves, Sapphi is a little subdude at times but comes to life on walks etc.

Tonight they are supposed to be having mince and veg, should I give it them or not?

Any advice would be gratefully received. Sorry for yet another set of questions.

[Nicola]

Awww sorry to hear they have poorly tummies again Sam    It's odd how its all three of them as well 

I would try the frozen mince again, I give Alfie the freeflow stuff from PAH and he does really well on it but if you know they were ok on the AMP blocks then maybe go back to those and try other things one at a time and that should let you see what it is that's giving them the runs. I know it's tempting to give them a huge variety of what to us is 'really good' stuff but sometimes the simpler the better and they seem to be telling you that something's not quite right.

[happydog]

I'm sticking to A.M.P. freeflow and tripe blocks with one small A.M.P.chicken wing afterwards. I dont feed the bones until after she has filled up on mince so she is more likely to crunch carefully before she swallows. The one time I fed her fresh was pigs liver and that gave her the runs. She is OK on A.M.P. Heart chunks though so she is getting some offal. I think freezing the meat first helps to 'keep the bugs at bay' IYKWIM.
Fern doesn't get tomato or peppers or oranges in her veg as they are all practically guaranteed to give her the runs and she only gets a little bit of veg about a spoonful of mushed veg per 400g of mince.
Don't know if that helps at all  Sam .I do hope you manage to get this sorted out.
Perhaps it is too much bone and veg at the moment until their digestive system and jaws adjust to BARF? I agree with Nicola, keep it really simple (ie to us 'boring') for a few weeks and then gradually introduce new foods one at a time so that you can monitor the 'results'.

[CraftySam]

Thanks Nicola and Happydog

I've sent OH for some AMP blocks on his way home from work. My plan is to feed them for a few days until they return to normal. Then I will exchange 1 meal for mince and if they are ok, the following day feed 1 block meal and 1 ribs etc and build it up from there. Hopefully that way I should be able to work out if something is disagreeing.

I did wonder if any of the veg was the culprit, I have about 4 weeks worth of whizzed up veg frozen I thought I might add the veg to a block once they've settled and see if that makes a difference. I know that they have been fine on all flavours of the blocks. If the veg causes it, then I'll leave out the ones you mentioned happydog.

I did freeze everything to kill off the bugs as it had been suggested before.

Barney's had the runs all day, the other two seem to stop at lunchtime. I decided to keep it light tonight and have given them some scrambled egg with the shells added. In the morning they can start with the blocks.

Does anyone add things like cottage cheese, yoghurt, pro-biotics? or anything else?

If anyone else has any advice I'd love to hear it.

[happydog]

I dont add any dairy products except eggs. I am not sure that milk/cheese is a 'biologically appropriate' food. It wouldn't often be available in a wild prey situation after all   

[CraftySam]

I dont add any dairy products except eggs. I am not sure that milk/cheese is a 'biologically appropriate' food. It wouldn't often be available in a wild prey situation after all   

In one of the BARF books and I can't remember which now it says about supplementing with cottage cheese and/or probiotics. Another one is cod liver oil that I read about. I haven't done any of these as I noted that most people on here don't supplement, but I just wondered whether they might help, thats all!

[happydog]

I dont add any dairy products except eggs. I am not sure that milk/cheese is a 'biologically appropriate' food. It wouldn't often be available in a wild prey situation after all   

In one of the BARF books and I can't remember which now it says about supplementing with cottage cheese and/or probiotics. Another one is cod liver oil that I read about. I haven't done any of these as I noted that most people on here don't supplement, but I just wondered whether they might help, thats all!

I think that is Kymythy Schultze. I don't supplement either -as reading her book and  Tom Lonsdales together -providing you are feeding a good mix of muscle meat, offal, bone, fat and veg in the correct proportions ( ie meat, bones & veg in reducing amounts) you shouldn't need supplements if you have a normally fit and healthy dog. As you have only just begun Barf I really wouldn't worry too much at this stage. Dietary deficiencies are only likely to be significant if you feed an unbalanced diet in the long term, just as with humans.  From what I have read I think it is the proportions of muscle meat, fat, bone and veg that are important. I also think that every dogs' requirements will be different as are humans'. Thank doG I only have one animal to get right. You are doing this with three different breeds at three different stages in their lives...

[Joules]

The only things I give Coco other than meat, bones and veg are eggs and sardines/pilchards plus the garlic powder I add to the veg to repel fleas and ticks and generally kill off bugs.  I figure if I give her a good mix of the main things, her diet will provide her with all she needs.  It is early days though so I may be proved completely wrong!   

[silkstocking]

I was advised to add cottage cheese of bio yoghurt by my breeder when they were pups ( my two were weaned on BARF), these two love both ;)Milo just licked his lips at the mention of cottage cheese 

[Penel]

Just to echo what others have said - go back to the blocks for a few weeks even, if that gets their tummies right.  If they have been used to "dog food" for ages, it can take a while for their tummies to adjust....then gradually add in a chicken wing here and there.
Mine do get bio yog when I remember to buy it, which isn't very often !!!

[Naughty Pair]

i give teri yoghurt - i think it is calming for the stomach...

good luck.

[CraftySam]

Thanks everyone.

Its good to know I'm on the right track, for now anyway!

Sapphi and Barney have had more runs since my last post. OH is being sent back to the shops tomorrow for some natural yoghurt in the hope that will help settle things.

I Thank doG I only have one animal to get right. You are doing this with three different breeds at three different stages in their lives...

That is why my head is spinning!    The starting quantities I'd given them aren't quite as Sapphi and Max have put on weight and Barney has lost a little. 

Goodness knows what Penel's head was doing when she started out, she's got five! 

[DennyK]

I thought Kymythy Schultze et al advise against giving any dairy produce because most dogs can't metabolise lactose, the milk sugars?  Paddy luuurrrrvvvves natural yoghurt but I haven't been giving him any dairy because of the lactose thing and because, well, he's Paddy with the dodgy tum...he does get non-dairy acidophilus though...

I've finally just joined the BritBarf group on Yahoo and was interested that many of the members there think that chicken skin and chicken fat in particular seem to be irritants for their dogs, rather than just "chicken" lumped together. 

[clairep4]

Bella gets the odd dollop of yoghurt or cottage cheese, normally on a Sunday as that's when she gets egg or sardine.

We're feeding 12 week old Zorro on raw at the moment but having to chop and change a bit to find things that suit him - I'd made up some mince with whizzed up veg and it made him sick a couple of times so for now he's on the freeflow lamb mince, a chicken wing and then either plain beef mince or rabbit (from the AMP blocks). The lamb mince has made him a bit squitty a couple of times so when the butcher opens tomorrow (closed Mon and Tues) I'll get more beef mince from him as I think the lamb mince may be too rich for him at the moment. He did have a small bit of breast of lamb, one of the ends with only teeny weeny, very soft ribs, and was fine on that, but I do take most of the fat off it.

Sam I hope your 3 settle down with it soon, the diet you listed looks fine to me, it can be tricky at the start though...

PS One day I will record Zorro with a chicken wing - even if he's at the other side of the room to you (and Bella's kept in another room) he kind of goes "gggggrrrryumyumggrrrrrrrrrrryumgrrrrrrrr" as he's eating, tail wagging furiously, chomping away (it takes him 15mins to get through one, he is a thorough chewer!). He's so funny with his little gremlin noises 

[Mollycuddles]

I hope you can sort the problems with feeding raw diet to your dogs ... mine seem to be fine with it and I'm really pleased with Dagen it's helped sort a couple of problems he had ....I think at the beginning it's a little hit and miss trying to get it right, but I'm sure you will get the results you want soon.

All of mine are now fed raw including Tessa who took a little longer to convert as she'd been fed dry kibble for 6 years, she now loves it and is looking good and what pearly white teeth she has...
George and Molly wont eat anything but raw and Dagen (5 months old) has improved tremendously he is completely on raw food now, he used to have terrible itchy skin and dandruff also had very loose poos from the very first day we had him but now he's a different puppy lovely shiny coat and his poos are always perfect also he's putting weight on much better and his back legs are muscling up better too. the only problem I had initially was Molly who put weight on which she didn't need, I started  feeding them too much (I never weigh anything), now I think I have the right balance and am pleased with the results....

It does take a while to get the balance right George has to have less bone than Molly as he gets really dry poos, the trouble with them, like us they are all different....... Perhaps yours need a little more bone in their diet?

I don't feed egg that often and never cheese I only give a little tinned oily fish if their mince hasn't thawed out in time, they have, only as a treat a little biotic yoghurt about twice a week also I give them half a teaspoon of cod liver oil in their meaty meal.
Today they have fresh rabbits so they wont have any mince or other bones except Dagen who sneakily gets given a chicken wing early morning and mid day.

I'm no expert on this raw feeding and have learnt so much from the threads on here but I must admit now (and even surprise myself ... after that very first chicken wing of course ...) that I approach this raw feeding in a relaxed way ... just chop it up and give em ...

Wishing you luck ....