Puppies on BARF

[CraftySam]

I swapped Morgan (who is now 15 weeks) on to BARF around four weeks ago, thanks to lots of help from Claire4p.

I started him off on 10% of his body weight, and he ate everything I put down.  To begin with he was having 3 meals of mince and one chicken wing.
I've cut him back to three meals a day now.  Last week I attempted to increase the amount he got as he'd put on weight so he was still on 10% of his bodyweight but he wouldn't eat it, and not only wouldn't he eat the extra he barely had two mouthfuls out of his bowl.  After a few days of this I cut his food back again and he then ate it all. 

He's still putting on weight, just over two weeks ago he was 4.4kg and now he's 5.7kg.  He's only having 300g of mince and 1chicken wing (about 80g) a day. He also gets a bit of pulped veg too.

I am worried about him getting everything he needs, which is why I ummed and ahhed about swapping him onto BARF. It was pointed out to me that this was not very logical as when asked if my adult dogs get everything they need my answer is yes.

If he's still putting on weight do I need to worry about not feeding him the full 10% of his bodyweight?  Should I give him something else other than mince and wings? He gets as supplements Keepers Mix, Salmon Oil and Evening Primrose Oil.

I don't know if its connected to anything but he's had loose bowels for a few days, but is absolutely fine in himself and he's eating fine.  Does he need more bone?

[DennyK]

Sam

Derek Turnbull, who runs the BritBARF list on Yahoo recently posted on calcium requirements for adults and pups.

He said that "an adult dog needs 0.5-0.9% dietary calcium by dry weight, according to the standard petfood industry guide Nutrient Requirements of Dogs (the actual amount is almost certainly quite a bit lower as pet foods need extra added to counteract the phytates present in the cereal, which interfere with calcium uptake); a study by Udall & McKay showed that even in growing pups their calcium needs were met by a bone content of 3%, which equated with a calcium uptake level of 0.4% by dry weight. This assumes adequate dietary vitamin D. 

Chicken backs supply 2% calcium by dry weight (more than chicken wings do!),  so even if this were the only RMB fed, a diet made up of 25% or more of these would be more than adequate: http://www.barfworld.com/html/barfworld/analysis.html ." (End of Derek's bit....)

So I'd check what proportion of bone your pup is already getting before worrying about adding more to the diet. You don't mention any organ meat in his diet?  Apologies because I haven't fed a puppy on raw, I only moved Pads onto it when he was about 8 months old, so I can't answer your core question about proportions etc - and I don't know if there's a recommendation to avoid liver, kidney etc for pups - if not, are you feeding this? 

Overall, sounds like he's looking good and growing well, so if he leaves the larger meals but is thriving on the "smaller" ones - go with it.  If you think about commercial foods, they all have enormous recommended ranges too.

Denise

[Penel]

If he's thriving, keep doing what you're doing.  It sounds great to me, and very similar to what I raised Lola and Hattie on from 8 wks old.

[CraftySam]

Thanks Denise and Penel.

So I'd check what proportion of bone your pup is already getting before worrying about adding more to the diet. You don't mention any organ meat in his diet?  Apologies because I haven't fed a puppy on raw, I only moved Pads onto it when he was about 8 months old, so I can't answer your core question about proportions etc - and I don't know if there's a recommendation to avoid liver, kidney etc for pups - if not, are you feeding this? 

I've really followed what Claire fed Zorro on, knowing that its as Penel advised her.  Zorro was around six months when he started to eat what Bella did.  My other three have organ mean twice a week, but I've not been giving any to Morgan.  Barney was around 7 months when I started him on BARF, and I gave him organ meat straight away.

Penel, what age would you say he should get some organ meat?

[clairep4]

Hi Sam, it sounds like things are going fine and yes, I think it's fine to cut down the food. I did this with Zorro as by the time he was 6kg I just looked at what 600g of food looked like and then looked at the little squirt and thought it was just a silly amount, so he went onto about 4-500g instead. If he's putting on weight nicely and feels fine (not too lean, not too fat) then I'd just feed him the amount he seems to want. I have to say that with Zorro his food went up and down a bit as he had growth spurts and then phases of not growing (you know when you have those weeks where suddenly they've gone all gangly or their bodies look weirdly long  ).

He's now 7 months (today - happy 7 months The Squirtmeister!) and until last week was still on 400g (weighs around 9kg) and I've just reduced his evening meal from 200g to 150g to see how he goes, as he's definitely slowed down with the growing.

I would start to add some organ meat - my two get tripe with a small amount of kidney twice a week.

Well done with his diet so far! 

[Penel]

He can have some organ meat now if he likes    you're doing really well    I don't do weights, as you probably know, so really I have no idea how much I fed Hattie, or Lola, as puppies - but they;ve turned out ok 

[CraftySam]

Thanks everyone! 

Weighed him again tonight and he's put on 500g this week and is 6.2kg. He's looking about right, so I'll continue along the same lines. I'll start adding in a bit of organ meat too after my next trip to the butchers. 
His poo has firmed up again now, it took a few days.  I had added in supplements very recently, which I stopped when his poo's went very soft as they'd been fine prior to this. I'm going to add in one at a time just to see if there is a reaction to one of them.  I know Max can get the runs for unexplained reasons so Morgan may just be the same. It wasn't bad enough for me to worry about.

(you know when you have those weeks where suddenly they've gone all gangly or their bodies look weirdly long  ).

He's now 7 months (today - happy 7 months The Squirtmeister!)

He's looking just like that now!    We were just saying at training tonight now leggy he is and that his body is soo long.

Happy 7 month Zorro! 

[amandaC]

Sorry to interupt on this thread but I currently feed raw tripe mince, raw beef mince and raw eggs along with my Wafcol, Vitalin or James Welbeloved biscuits. Kind of a half and half ratio.

Now when it comes to raw chicken I really worry. My father tells me you can feed raw chicken legs or wings as the dogs crunch up the bones but I really struggle with it. Can I really do that...? Also what about the health risks of salmonella to the dogs and my young children? As the kids love the dogs and spend all their time stroking, cuddling and playing ball etc with the dogs if I fed the dogs raw chicken would there be a health risk to the kids? Also can puppies have raw chicken or is it too risky?

Any advice greatly received.

Best wishes
Amanda

[CraftySam]

Sorry to interupt on this thread but I currently feed raw tripe mince, raw beef mince and raw eggs along with my Wafcol, Vitalin or James Welbeloved biscuits. Kind of a half and half ratio.

Now when it comes to raw chicken I really worry. My father tells me you can feed raw chicken legs or wings as the dogs crunch up the bones but I really struggle with it. Can I really do that...? Also what about the health risks of salmonella to the dogs and my young children? As the kids love the dogs and spend all their time stroking, cuddling and playing ball etc with the dogs if I fed the dogs raw chicken would there be a health risk to the kids? Also can puppies have raw chicken or is it too risky?

Any advice greatly received.

Best wishes
Amanda

No need to apolgise!

I totally understand your chicken worry, with regards to the bones.  I was a nervous wreck when I first started to feed them! The warning about chicken bones are for when they have been cooked.  Raw ones are totally different and we've not had any bother.  I tend to find with my older two dogs they are so keen to throw them down their throats that it worried me that they weren't chewing them properly so I hand feed them.
Interestingly the one that eats them properly on his own is Morgan, our 16 week old pup! He certainly doesn't have any problem at all crunching up the bones. When he starts teething he may well, and he'll probably get more mince during that time, and return to chicken wings later.

I freeze (and then defrost) all my meat before giving it to the dogs as, I'm told, that kills off alot of the bugs. Personally I would think if you exercise sensible hygiene precautions when you handle the meat and clearing up when your dog has had the wing, mine tend to lift them out of the bowl and onto the floor so I mop over the floor, then I don't see any problem.  I'm not an expert in Salmonella by any means, but if I thought it would be a problem to me or my dogs then I wouldn't put them at risk. They're lots of dogs on this forum fed raw chicken and I've not heard of anyone having problems.

As I said my puppy is having raw chicken wings every day and has been since he was 11 weeks old, and he's been fine.  He's the first pup I've started on BARF, Barney was around 8 months old when he started on raw.  Hth. 

[Nicola]

Sorry to interupt on this thread but I currently feed raw tripe mince, raw beef mince and raw eggs along with my Wafcol, Vitalin or James Welbeloved biscuits. Kind of a half and half ratio.

Now when it comes to raw chicken I really worry. My father tells me you can feed raw chicken legs or wings as the dogs crunch up the bones but I really struggle with it. Can I really do that...? Also what about the health risks of salmonella to the dogs and my young children? As the kids love the dogs and spend all their time stroking, cuddling and playing ball etc with the dogs if I fed the dogs raw chicken would there be a health risk to the kids? Also can puppies have raw chicken or is it too risky?

Any advice greatly received.

Best wishes
Amanda

What Sam has said on this is exactly right but just one other thing I'd add is that I'd stick to chicken wings or backs and avoid legs. Even fed raw, weight bearing bones such as legs can be a bit more brittle than wing bones and could potentially splinter. Salmonella from eating raw chicken isn't an issue for dogs as they have a completely different digestive system to humans (much shorter). Just don't let your kids touch the raw chicken and make sure you wash all cutlery, bowls etc. and it'll be fine.

[bluegirl]

My pups have been raised on raw meat and raw bones from day one, well week 4 to be precise and I didn't have any problems with them accepting the food they really enjoyed it. Had to make sure I watched every meal because I had quite a few greedy pups in the litter and some did try to gobble down mum's food aswell if I wasn't looking.
I'm like Penel in that I don't really weigh food, but I gave a mixture of meat, offal and bones and fed raw eggs about 3 times per week. I made it all in a big dish then divided into equal shares. After each meat meal I gave lamb ribs and chicken wings and let them all go for them. I have 3 children and having been feeding raw for over 4 years now and I have never had a incidence of salmonella with humans. You just need to clean work areas and floors well after the meal has gone. As for the dogs they are designed for raw feeding, so if you choose to do it it's fine for them.

For a 15 week old pup I did give a chicken wing, chicken thigh bone, lamb ribs and occasionally chicken leg bones after their meat meal.
All my meat is fit for human consumption and I have only ever frozen it if I have bought excess, usually it is given straight away.
Watch the offal because if given too often he'll end up with loose stools again. I give it about 3 times per week.

[CraftySam]

For a 15 week old pup I did give a chicken wing, chicken thigh bone, lamb ribs and occasionally chicken leg bones after their meat meal.
All my meat is fit for human consumption and I have only ever frozen it if I have bought excess, usually it is given straight away.
Watch the offal because if given too often he'll end up with loose stools again. I give it about 3 times per week.

Karen, can I just pick you brain a bit.

At the mo he's having mince, which is the PAH that has a bit of ground bone in, and Chicken wings.  I am going to add in a little bit of offal in with his mince to begin with on three days, as you suggest. When you say you give a bone after their meat meal, would that be one, two or three times a day?

I am experimenting a bit because of his loose stools.  Normally he gets two mince meals and one wing a day, with a little bit of veg.  I was unsure if I should give him two wings every day but I had a feeling his loose stools was down to lack of bone, so I've started to give him two wings every other day, which resolves the loose stools the next day but returns  back to loose the day after just 1 wing.  Do you think it would be ok to give him two wings every day?  Do you start feeding ribs at this age? Mine have pork ribs as I can't source lamb ribs.

My adult dogs are on 3 mince and veg, 2 offal and veg, 1 sardine and egg, 4 pork ribs and 4 chicken wing meals a week. Would you be feeding this variety at this age or would you keep it to mince with a bit of offal added and wing/s every day.  I'm aiming to get him on the same menu as the adults by six months, would you do it then or before?

Do you feed your pups supplements? My adults are on Evening Primrose Oil, Salmon Oil and Keepers Mix. I wondered if these might make his stools loose so stopped them while I got him on an even keel then I'll introduce again one at a time.

Final question, do you find they need to stop bones when they are teething? I did think so, but then when I thought about it all of mine have loves to chew on concrete when teething so would bones be that removed?!

Sorry for the questions, just anxious to get lots of opinions and to know if I can alter what he's on now a bit so that it might suit him better while making sure that he's getting everything that he needs.

[bluegirl]

Hi Craftysam,

when my pups were 4mths old they were on 3 meals per day. 2 of those meals were made up of raw meat. I usually fed a meat meal followed by say a chicken thigh bone and one followed by a chicken wing. It's ok to do 2 chicken wings if you find it's better for the stool consistency but just remember to adjust the total amount of meat accordingly because the chicken wings are obviously meatier than the thigh bones.

I don't give mince, only did that before they were 8 weeks old, but I regularly mixed the meats (and still do) so that in one meal I could have beef, chicken, turkey, lamb and rabbit. Chicken is my main meat but if the others are on special I buy these in aswell for variety.

I do use supplements I use cod liver oil, and omega 3,6,9 oil on a daily basis, I also add kelp and herbs to my meals, mainly parsley and nettles, also grind up egg shells, nuts, garlic, veg, and use wheatgerm and bran on their meals. All the ingredients have vitamins and minerals in them which are useful and the parsley is used daily as a kidney tonic.

I did continue to feed bones through the teething stage but I found that with some of the pups it took much longer for them to eat the bones during that period, probably due to loose, missing teeth and tender gums. Having said that they always wanted the bones however long it took. During this stage I added more crushed egg shells to their diet and mine always have a milky meal in the morning so their calcium intake remained quite high.

Hope I've covered everything you asked.

Karen

[CraftySam]

Hi Craftysam,

when my pups were 4mths old they were on 3 meals per day. 2 of those meals were made up of raw meat. I usually fed a meat meal followed by say a chicken thigh bone and one followed by a chicken wing. It's ok to do 2 chicken wings if you find it's better for the stool consistency but just remember to adjust the total amount of meat accordingly because the chicken wings are obviously meatier than the thigh bones.

I don't give mince, only did that before they were 8 weeks old, but I regularly mixed the meats (and still do) so that in one meal I could have beef, chicken, turkey, lamb and rabbit. Chicken is my main meat but if the others are on special I buy these in aswell for variety.

I do use supplements I use cod liver oil, and omega 3,6,9 oil on a daily basis, I also add kelp and herbs to my meals, mainly parsley and nettles, also grind up egg shells, nuts, garlic, veg, and use wheatgerm and bran on their meals. All the ingredients have vitamins and minerals in them which are useful and the parsley is used daily as a kidney tonic.

I did continue to feed bones through the teething stage but I found that with some of the pups it took much longer for them to eat the bones during that period, probably due to loose, missing teeth and tender gums. Having said that they always wanted the bones however long it took. During this stage I added more crushed egg shells to their diet and mine always have a milky meal in the morning so their calcium intake remained quite high.

Hope I've covered everything you asked.

Karen

Thanks for all the info Karen. 

[DennyK]

If they go through a stage while teething where they struggle with bones, then either increase the amount of tripe they get per week: it has a broadly similar calcium/phosphorous balance to bone, or feed a pre-prepared mix with bonemeal in as a failsafe.  The calcium/phosphorous balance is important as too much calcium leads to leaching of phosphorous (much like too much iron leaches copper in humans, so over-supplementing with iron can cause copper deficiency - which has many symptoms similar to iron deficiency!).