Giving Paw And Begging ..

[Jan/Billy]

Sid, my choc.lab, used to roll over on to his back with his legs in the air if we said "Die for your country!"

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[debbie321]

Having read all the opinions on this thread - it's made me more determined to teach Ben more!  I posted a question earlier today asking for a recommended clicker training book!  

Ben is just happier when he is learning - the basic manners are essential (even though he lacks a few of those at the mo   ) but I see no problem with any desirable behaviour being rewarded.  If you don't want a dog to give a paw - don't reward it - if you do - great!  

I'm sure the dog doesn't find it degrading to earn a treat - I think it's just some of our personal opinions that think it is.  I personally don't like to see dogs dance on their back legs waving front paws around - but I bet the dogs or their owners enjoy it ..........

[Petra]

I have never seen 'paw' as a form of begging - more of a way of saying 'please'
I ask Dill to give a paw before a treat, and likewise I expect my children to say 'please'!!
I don't think it is de-grading - okay perhaps it is not as usefull as a good recall but there is nothing wrong with having manners....

[*Jay*]

I must say that we haven't done begging because I do feel that is a bit demeaning, but as I have been thinking it through whilst reading this thread, I can't for the life of me think why, rationally. I just don't like it.

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I think that has more to do with our concept of begging. Brook certainly wasn't 'begging' in that sense, it was just a name that we put to an action he did of his own accord

I haven't actively taught my dogs tricks. Vegas gives a paw because at 7 weeks old he would hold out his paw to touch your hand. All I did was put a name to it - thatw as something he did naturally so I don't see how that could be demeaning to him  Disney can do a high five but again, that was an action he did by himself before I put a name to it.  When we have visitors, they always want to see Vegas do his find-it game. You can ask him to go and get any toy ie monkey, ball, snowflake, pussy cat etc and he will go and get it. This is something I actively encourage as he is a very smart dog who loves to use his brain. He absolutely loves this game so I think he will be most upset when I tell him that he shouldn't be doing it as in doing so mummy has turned him into a performing seal  All 3 of mine do obedience training and have done so since they were pups - I don't see why they can't learn little things alongisde heelwork and retrieves

[sarahp]

I personally do not see the problem with this.  

I was thinking about the NILIF principles the other day and trying to decide whether I thought they were 'degrading' or not.  The idea that the dog has to 'ask' for everything - I wondered whether this was a little OTT.  

At first I thought I didnt like the idea - Daisy is part of the family and therefore she should not have to perform for everything, but then as I was debating this with myself (its amazing what you think about whilst walking in the forest!! ) I realised that actually its no different than expecting a child - or other adult - to say please and thankyou - its simply good manners.  If my OH never said please or thank you I'd soon get hacked off with him - so whats the difference??

Then you get the debate about the 'action' are some more degrading than others???  Personally I dont think so.  Daisy high fives for her treats.  When I went to the last lot of training classes we all had to teach our dog a trick inbetween the last 2 lessons.  So Daisy high fives with the corresponding paw to which ever hand I hold up.  

She doesnt seem to care - in fact I think she views it in a very similar light to how humans view the one arm bandit in the pub - the only difference is Daisy wins every time and it doesnt cost her anything  

The only problem I see with it is that we sometimes get 'ambushed' - by that I mean we often get high fived when we havent asked for it - but hey you cant blame a girl for trying    

Edited to add - I think if you asked Daisy she would say she has a very well trained human -"All I have to do it pat her on the hand and she hands over the food - and it only took me 30 minutes to teach her"    

[Colin]

Teaching tricks although maybe a bit gimmicky, does teach your dog the ability to learn and that being attentive to you can be rewarding. Some tricks have practical benefits too eg teaching a dog to give it's paw makes it easier to dry their paws when wet, or if they have a limp to help you inspect for the problem etc.

[Mich]

I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching a dog to paw before he/she gets a treat.    I don't believe a dog would know any difference between siting and giving a paw, they just know that a certain behaviour gets a treat!!! I certaining don't think they would think it was demeaning!!  

Really I think this is a about what bahaviour you want you dog to exhibit throughout its life.  If they are taught paw then I suppose they may do it of their own accord when they want something and then we (humans) would interpret this as begging, but I think this is a human concept not a dog one!!  

I have followed NILIF with Bailey and it has worked very well, I feel it is just teaching dog manners.   Which helps them co-exist happily with humans.        

[luckydogs]

Lucky already gave 2 paws when he came to us. Ally has never been taught to give paws but just learned from Lucky I suppose. Lucky also had been taught to bark for food which we thought was rude so we havn't encouraged this but I see no harm in teaching dog tricks  after all most of us take our dogs to obedience classes. I also think the dogs enjoy pleasing you and they reap the reward usually with a treat.Got us stitched up so they have !    

[shonajoy]

I don't do it, so I guess I think more like your SIL
My neighbour taught his dog to do it when they got her at 14wks but as much as it can be cute it's not for me or my dog. I would much prefer to teach her to walk to heel and behave herself which will be of use to her.
I don't think it's necessary to treat her like a performing seal it's degrading.

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Isn't teaching *behaving* making dogs comply to out standards of right and wrong, they certainly wouldn't walk at someone's heel or sit or any of the stuff they do if it was natural. Hamish is strating peoper training classes shortly - because he's smart and I think he's bored - anyone who has met either of my dogs knows Im not anal about training them! It's PURELY for Ham.

I see paw as just another one of those things - now if you used it solely for laughs or to make fun of the dog then maybe demaeaning, but Icertainly don't see it as akin to a performing seal!

[LoveCatz]

I don't see anything wrong in teaching a dog to give their paw for a treat. They can't speak (at least not a language we understand   ) so I see it as manners and teaching them good behaviour from bad. I compare my two to having kids all the time.

[Gini]

She disagreed with my NILIF approach too, said that if you have a dog it should be part of the family and you wouldn't do that to your child!   

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That's quite funny, as this morning I had a conversation with my 8 year old son about NILIF. He's suffering from post Christmas naughtyness, so we've made him put back lots of pleases and thank yous that he'd forgotten about. He's even tried sitting a few times! So yes, I would make my child do that and my husband!!!! It's called manners!

[Magic Star]

Dogs are on the whole very intelligent animals and enjoy being taught new things, like giving paw, flat, sit, speak, roll over etc it gets their minds working   Surely its only on a par with teaching a small baby to clap hands or  wave ta ta?  Obviousley I would draw the line at silly tricks, but I am currantly working on teaching Indie to load the dishwasher    (joke)

Not sure where all this polictically correctness will stop, next it will be not putting them on leads as its demeaning and takes the choice of which direction they want to go in away!  Dogs are happy as Larry as long as they are well fed, well watered, stimulated and loved, lets face it what dog is going to feel they have been demeaned for having to give a paw in return for a hot dog?  Do they care, do they look bovvered when they are munching their reward?    Do they remember even??

[Jan/Billy]

I am currantly working on teaching Indie to load the dishwasher,

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         If only they could do this.......I'd have ten of them    

[crazyspaniels]

Oh I forgot, I have taught Paddy to do a proper beg - or "sit up" as a finish for his dancing as he can't take a bow like Bilbo ::

[Top Barks]

We love tricks which include giving paws, bows, spins, weaves, up on back paws etc   which the dogs love.
it's all play to them and what's more they get rewarded for it as well.
Tricks are a great stress reliever and great fun to train and watch.
My favourite is when doug puts himself to bed in his blanket and his latest is taking a hanky from my pocket on a sneeze cue.
he presents it neatly to me.
now how cute is that?    
Off to learn some more tricks now.
Mark,Doug and Ollie