CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Indie on October 14, 2007, 06:37:34 PM
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Hello!
We are after a solid colour puppy and went to see this little chap yesterday. His breeder thought the white/grey fur over his nose would probably turn brown like the rest of his coat. Is this generally what happens? We are not experienced in the early stages of puppy development so have no knowledge of our own to draw on.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee237/mirandajanenutt/DSCN3208.jpg)
Indie x
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I have seen white darken up from puppies, so it is possible, but can't be predicted.
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Please tell me that's a breeder's photo and that you weren't allowed to see and handle a puppy so very very young :huh:
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Please tell me that's a breeder's photo and that you weren't allowed to see and handle a puppy so very very young :huh:
my thought too pammy..... :-\
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Please tell me that's a breeder's photo and that you weren't allowed to see and handle a puppy so very very young :huh:
my thought too pammy..... :-\
Same here.
A well bred show type solid cocker wouldn't have white anywhere except a small amount on the chest at most :-\.
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some working cocker solid liver puppies do have white patches on other than their chest, usually noses and feet. Some disappear as they grow or darken, some don't... but at that young age I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.
My main hope is that the breeder isn't allowing loads of potential buyers to handle such young puppies :-\
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That looks like a working cocker puppy to me, because of the white nose that's the first thought that came into my head, that it was a worker.
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Please tell me that's a breeder's photo and that you weren't allowed to see and handle a puppy so very very young :huh:
My thought too Pammy :-\
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The OP said she went to see the puppy, so guess even if they didn't get to hold it, they saw it...
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Rolo as a young pup.( I delivered him) Rolo's breeder believes in handling her pups from a young age as long as you wash your hands and always under her close supervision.. her pups (and their mothers) were never stressed by this and all her pups are bomb proof.. and so friendly and outgoing.. they just dont have a snappy bone in them. Rolos breeder wouldnt let her children / others touch young pups until mum has bonded with them tho as this can lead to a pup being abandoned. Plus the labour suite ;) is kept quiet and calm throughout.. :luv:
strangers dont usually see them until they have their eyes open and are bouncing about..
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/jeanmurray/HPIM0611.jpg)
rolo now..
very little white on face..moe a pale brown..
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/jeanmurray/rolo-2.jpg)
and its all roan on his chest.
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/jeanmurray/IMG_2569.jpg)
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Different someone the dog knows :-\ not the same for a prospective puppy owner to handle them at such a young age. I think it really unsettles Mum :huh:
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Different someone the dog knows :-\ not the same for a prospective puppy owner to handle them at such a young age. I think it really unsettles Mum :huh:
I agree.. potential buyers dont see the pups until they are bigger but friends and family who come and go on a daily basis are encouraged to speak to the pups to help with socialising.. her pups are in her kitchen ( which is huge) and get used to all sorts of comings and goings..dishwashers washing machines kids doing homework... mum also leaps out to give you a huge welcome and cocker kisses.. rolos line is a very laid back lot.. theres a lot to be said for not being brought up in a kennel .( this is a working line bred for working not just the pet market) by the time they are 8 weeks old they arent scared of bangs clatters anything.. they have met the cats you name it.
anyway modified to say.. the white can certainley disappear, especially if its just a touch of white.
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Thank you for all your replies.
Firstly, I am shocked and very worried that our visit has caused such concern amongst you. We were shown the puppy (I took the photo) but it is clear we should not have been allowed to visit at all. I really don't know what to say as we had absolutely no idea that such an early visit would be a problem. We adore our current cocker but he is our first dog and our complete lack of knowledge regarding new-born puppies is clearly showing. I relied completely on the breeder knowing best..... :-\
We shall think hard about this, meanwhile I can only apologise for being naive.
Setting that aside, the comments and photos are very helpful as it shows things can change by the week. The photos of Rolo are gorgeous, thank you Jean for sharing them! We will clearly have to be patient if we decide to take things further with this dog and ask for updates as he progresses.
All the best,
Indie x
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Indie - what matters is that you learn from the experience on the forum and then use that experience with your own judgement in finding the right breeder.
This breeder might be OK - but showing such a very young puppy to strangers is not the norm and does beg the question as to why. Just how old are the puppies? He looks to only be about a week old, if that. You need to satisfy yourself that this is a reputable breeder.
Socialising puppies is vitally important as mentioned above - but this can be and is normally done with family members and people the mum is comfortable with, not strangers. They are better raised in the home and exposed to normal daily family life, but while still blind and very tiny is risky from a disease perspective and of upsetting mum.
As for choosing a puppy - there's no way you can choose a puppy at that age anyway as you have no idea what they will turn out like. Also a sad fact is that the puppies are still very vulnerable at that age and while not common it is not unkown for them to suddenly fade and be lost.:(
From four and even better about 6 weeks is a better age when some of their personaity is starting to show. Colour is a secondary concern taken over heath and temperament.;)
Good luck - let us know how you get on. Try not to let the heart rule.
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Thank you for all your replies.
Firstly, I am shocked and very worried that our visit has caused such concern amongst you. We were shown the puppy (I took the photo) but it is clear we should not have been allowed to visit at all. I really don't know what to say as we had absolutely no idea that such an early visit would be a problem. We adore our current cocker but he is our first dog and our complete lack of knowledge regarding new-born puppies is clearly showing. I relied completely on the breeder knowing best..... :-\
We shall think hard about this, meanwhile I can only apologise for being naive.
Setting that aside, the comments and photos are very helpful as it shows things can change by the week. The photos of Rolo are gorgeous, thank you Jean for sharing them! We will clearly have to be patient if we decide to take things further with this dog and ask for updates as he progresses.
All the best,
Indie x
you live and learn Indie.. If this breeder is letting folk straight off the street that dont know the bitch in to handle pups that young Id avoid her/ him TBH. how did you hear about the pups? Its a bit early to be advertising them.. TBH I thought you were going to say youd known them and their bitch for years.. but to take strangers in with a day or two old pup is risky. Not only would it scare the mother, Potentially you could carry parvo or anything in to them, they dont know you you could have been near an infected dog. maybe they are just seeing pound signs..
no ones getting at you.. keep posting....
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Hi,
Something else I would add regarding the show/work mix is you won't be able to tell whether the puppy looks like a show or working type.
We have Bracken who out of her whole 5 generation pedigree has two working cockers in her gg grandparents (both on the mothers side), but she looks quite working cocker like and has very short fur with just a smidgen of feathering. This may not be a problem to you, but is something else to consider.
Em
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If you haven't already, have a read of the link below about how to find a reputable breeder so you can get an idea of what to look for :blink:.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=2019.0
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My puppies are kept in a separate room away from the busy day to day bustle of the household until they are around 3 weeks old, obviously family members go in and out etc but apart from that everything is kept very low key. They then get moved downstairs in a more central area of the house and people can then visit from 4 weeks onwards. No one is having a go at you or calling you naive but I would be seriously concerned if a breeder is letting you anywhere near puppies that young :-\
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Indie, please be careful - I don't know any reputable breeder who would allow potential puppy buyers to visit what looks like a new born litter (the pup in the photo still looks quite bony which to me indicates he's only a few days old at best). You also shouldn't be expected to choose a puppy at this tender age - as someone else has said, anything could happen as sadly not all newborn pups survive the first few weeks :( This litter isn't in the Hants area is it? If it is, PM me as I may be able to help you with further info on the breeder concerned.
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I agree with all the others. I would be worried about this breeder and would consider looking elsewhere for a puppy. If she is not knowledgable enough to know when to let people come and see the puppies i would be worried about how she actually breeds them and what problems you may have with this puppy in the future if you do buy it. Like you i am quite naive and tend to just trust people but this did set alarm bells ringing. Keep us posted anyway and good luck xx
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You also shouldn't be expected to choose a puppy at this tender age - as someone else has said, anything could happen as sadly not all newborn pups survive the first few weeks :( This litter isn't in the Hants area is it? If it is, PM me as I may be able to help you with further info on the breeder concerned.
Thats exactly what I was thinking Jane..... Indies post reminded me so much of my first post I asked her the same question (which got the answer I was expecting) Sadly it doesnt always work out ok as my experience was testament to.
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I am sorry to barge into the conversation like this but seeing buyers early is very common on the continent. As I am originally from Germany I have always kept it this way. Our puppy buyers come from the first week on but are not allowed to touch the puppies or sit directly by the whelping box. My puppies are in our office for the first two weeks as I spend a lot of time in there but there is no coming and going. So any potential puppy buyer (who are only allowed to visit at weekends) will be able to take a quick glimpse at the puppies but then we move on into the kitchen for a talk. After their first two weeks the puppies move into the kitchen where everything happens in this house (it is rather large with a big dining table etc). From the time the puppies have their eyes open puppy buyers are allowed to touch them too. With four and a half weeks the puppies move to a Summerhouse within a large enclosed area outdoors where they have plenty of toys such as tunnels, sand boxes, tree trunks, paddling pool and whatever else's I feel is important to socialise puppies.
Having said all of this - I think many things need to come together when you go about choosing a breeder. A statement such as the promise that a white patch on the nose will disappear would make me more mistrusting as it almost sounds that the breeder is trying to persuade you to buy the puppy........... The other worry would be the fact that the breeder is offering you a choice at this age. Not only is puppy survival not guaranteed at this age but there is also no way of knowing which temperament the puppy will display and there can be huge variations. One more concern in this department would be the fact that most reputable and well established breeders would have at least some show enquiries for the litter which means any pet home would have to wait until the breeder has made a decision regarding the "pick of the litter". When my litters are born it is more than likely that the puppies are already spoken for and it is very rare that I have not met potential buyers before the birth of the puppies. Would they be complete and utter strangers that did not sound to promising over the phone they would not set foot into my house while a litter was about.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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But we are not in Germany we are in the UK and no reputable breeder would let strangers in to see puppies at such a young age ;)
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My puppies are kept in a separate room away from the busy day to day bustle of the household until they are around 3 weeks old, obviously family members go in and out etc but apart from that everything is kept very low key. They then get moved downstairs in a more central area of the house and people can then visit from 4 weeks onwards. No one is having a go at you or calling you naive but I would be seriously concerned if a breeder is letting you anywhere near puppies that young :-\
I agree with Gilly,My puppies are also kept in a room just with mum,for the first two weeks it was only my OH & me that went in with them,when they were three weeks old my eldest two grandchildren (11 & 13) were also allowed to help,followed by the younger ones for the puppies to get used to children.I did not let anyone come to the house to view the puppies until they were five weks old and then as long as they phoned me in advance they could come and see their chosen bundle of fun anytime (although they were made to use Hibiscrub on their hands and remove their shoes before touching the puppy!) I had one lady who came everyweek until she could take her puppy home.
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But we are not in Germany we are in the UK and no reputable breeder would let strangers in to see puppies at such a young age ;)
I have been living in the UK for the last six years and I guess what I am trying to say is that opinions can vary. Admitingly I am not only from a different country but breed a different breed too. ;)
Greetings,
Stephanie
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I have been living in the UK for the last six years and I guess what I am trying to say is that opinions can vary. Admitingly I am not only from a different country but breed a different breed too. ;)
I don't think opinions vary that much, not in Cockers anyway. We have breeder friends in other countries and all share pretty much the same approach to breeding as we in the UK do. I've also yet to read any modern dog breeding book which says that allowing puppy buyers to see newborn litters is good practice :-\
Anyway, I'll close this thread for now as I think poor Indie has been given enough to think about. She now has additional info on the breeder and it's up to her now ;)