A different kind of biting...

[Digger]

Thanks  Pearly.
I do think I have a pushy teenager on my hands. She definitely does things she knows I don't like to either challenge me or get a treat for then not doing it!.! I try to just ignore what I can of the bad behaviour.
Re the sofas - absolutely agree, and I wish I could do that. Unfortunately, we bought this house mainly based on the huge garden. The house itself is quite small. We have a tiny tv room at the front but the main living area at the back is all one space- kitchen, dining and a couple of sofas round the fire. We had the conversation but it is impossible to section off the sofa area. So annoying.
Training has been weird with her. Like I said in a previous post, my other dog would go - oh great, she has biscuits. Train all night. This one is really strange. I would start, then she would just get all bitey and stupid half the time so you would have to stop to calm the situation down and avoid confrontation.
Saying that, she has taken in some stuff when I've been able to persevere. She can: sit, down, wait, leave it,take it, off(I do believe she knows what this means grrr!) Will wait while I go through gates until I tell her to come through. When we are out, yes the 99% recall she did have has slipped a bit as you would suspect at this age, but she is directable. If she is going off in a direction and I say 'no- this way' she turns on a sixpence and comes my way.
I now take a ball out and we do some 'find it' in the long grass/ undergrowth which she loves. She is a very hard Hunter type and her more aggressive looking behaviour has actually been more noticeable since practicing hunting with the ball. Don't know if that could be linked.
I did take her to a training class early on but it was hideously overcrowded and full of barking dogs. We sat on a chair with the pup straining to see the other pups for 95% of the session and then was briskly told to get up and drag the puppy in between the cones with a treat on her nose. It was ridiculous. We didn't go back. I have enquired about another one but it's on an evening when I work so I can't do that. I have spoken to a local gun dog trainer but he's really expensive. I still might consider seeing him for a consultation but I couldn't afford you go regularly. It is very apparent that this dog needs to do something and I would like to do agility with her too if it suits but she's too young for that at the moment.

If anyone knows of a cocker/ gun dog specific trainer in my area, I am all ears. We are on the suffolk essex border.

She does have a routine. Morning walk then in her pen for an hour and a half. Lunch then the afternoons are less structured but I will do something with her mid afternoon and then she just hangs around for the evening.
I think that covers the questions.
 Now I have to go and clear up the remnants of my rosemary Bush that are now scattered all over the sofas with the strewn cushions. While I have been typing this, Inca has had 5 treats for obeying the off command ( she was on the windowsill via the back of the sofa)....OR...have I just rewarded her for being hideously attention seeking...Now it is walk time she has fallen asleep. Help.

[bizzylizzy]

I really do feel for you, infact I think most of us do as its all sooooo familiar!    . I haven‘t got much to add re solutions,, you‘ve had excellent advice so far from people who have much more experience than me. I remember  my very first trainer telling everyone about the various stages of maturity and joked that cockers (i.e. Humphrey) need 3 years until they calmed down. It caused peels of laughter at the time but as he now approaches his third birthday I can now what she meant. Not trying to put you off thinking you have a problem for the next three years  , more that things DO gradually get better. I always advocate reminding yourself of how things were say a month ago, you‘ll see that you ARE making progress, even if it is slower than you‘d like and its the best way of keeping yourself motivated.
Re training classes, I went to several with Humphrey but experienced exactly the same as you have described, I ended up stressed out and even left the field in tears on a couple of occasions. I also felt a complete and utter failure because everyone else except me seemed  to be able to control their dogs, the sympathetic smiles of the others made me feel awful and poor Humphrey was totally stressed. We were fortunate to find a dog club near to us where training is integrated into fun activities for the dogs, with absolutely bo pressure whatsoever and I‘ve found that to be a Godsend.
If you don‘t have a local class that suits, I‘d also advise getting advice from a gundog trainer and then do what you can. Looking back, I honestly  think no training school is better than one where you and your dog aren‘t happy, its a waste of time and money and does more harm than good.
Best of luck, it can be a bumpy ride but you WILL get there and its oh so worth it when you do (or so they tell me!!  )

[Mari]

Keeping my dog calm enough to be able to focus has always been my challenge too. She was thankfully never bitey, but she would get so eager that training sessions turned into her doing zoomies around me, too excited to learn anything. She would also bark and lounge at strangers (fear aggression) and I had to learn how to keep her stress levels in check before I saw any progress.

I feel like it helped to do really short training sessions so she had less time to get worked up. I had to be really conscious of how I gave commands and rewarded her too. Keeping my voice calm, using treats that were not too high value (maybe have a few high value ones for perfect execution and end a session there).

I also had to make sure some of the days activities were calming, like nosework or uneventful walks. Meeting other dogs, agility, training and playing would leave her more hyper. So we did that too, but made sure to balance it out with uneventful activities because that was the only way she would relax, if things around her were boring.

One thing that helped me was finding a trainer that only had 5 dogs per class. He would have us put the dogs in the car and work on one dog and handler at the time. I learned so much just from watching the others. And the stress on the dogs was kept to a minimum and he had time to give me feedback on my handling that I would never have noticed myself.

And the magical thing that seems to help the most with dogs that are like this is time. If you can survive until the dog is 3 years you will likely see a change  Just remember they do grow up...eventually.

I do agree with the others about the bond you get with these dogs that challenge us more than average. It is so rewarding! Exhausting, but rewarding 

[Digger]

...Just thought I would update this one.
  Since the 2 snapping incidents a little while back (a few hours apart) we have had no repeats. 
 I am going to tentatively say maybe she was just in a grotty mood about something...
  Further to this, I am pretty sure she is not aggressive. The other day she met a younger pup while out walking and it was really being crazy ( not nasty or anything but really...?!)
It was jumping all over her head, scratching at her face, just doing everything that you would imagine would wind a dog up. Inca did nothing. She just kept turning her head. By the time I managed to convince the guy I must go, Inca looked like she'd been back combed with a muddy stick!
  And on the guarding front...I don't think it is. Another dog took a ball from her mouth the other day without a murmer, our granddaughter was playing with Incas toys right in front of her and she didn't seem to mind at all and I then had to move a large parma ham bone she was gnawing out of the way to the other side of the room and that was ok too.
  Fingers crossed she was just having feeling grumpy and thought she'd try it on because she's a teenager.
....Hope I haven't just jinxed it

[Mari]

What a happy update! Maybe she just had a bad day or had some pain that day. I know I can be really unpleasant if someone bugs me when I have a headache or have just stubbed my toe. And then we just went overboard with analysing the incident

I always think it's  better to "overreact" when suspicious of guarding issues, since they are much easier to prevent than to fix. But maybe this is a reminder that one bad reaction does not equal a problem. Hope she continues to be happy, not snappy! (Sorry, I had to  )

[lescef]

Could she be coming in to season? Maddie did a lot of 'digging of the carpet  when she was in season. It can also makes them more bad tempered! Seven months is also about the time of the secondary fear period.

[Digger]

Hahaha! And yeah totally agree with you...and nothing wrong with assuming the worst either. Better to stamp on a behaviour before it becomes a problem..even if it isn't a problem..If you know what I mean!

[Digger]

Good point lescef
  I had wondered about that. No sign as yet, although she has had 2 incidents of a mysterious blob, one at 4 months and one at 6. Vet didn't know what it was. She is digging the carpet a lot lately though- I never knew that was linked so thanks for the tip- I will keep an eye out!

[Digger]

Yup...spoke  soon.
So Inca is now 9 months. Still biting. Some days nothing, some days still just comes up to you out of the blue and starts a fight. This side of the behaviour I can hope is just the tail end of the puppy witching hour thing, but the other is not...
 She will still argue with her teeth if she doesn't agree with what you are doing. She will happily whip her head round and bite you ( all be it gently) if you for instance get hold of her collar when she doesnt want you to. And there have been more occasions where she has snapped at me quite nastily for usually trying  get her out of somewhere where she shouldn't be.
  The weird thing though is that there is no growling or barking or any other kind of  behaviour and the bite is very gentle, but it is definitely a deliberate purposeful bite!
  Inca is fantastically well socialised- loves other dogs and behaves appropriately with them- never had any issues there. She loves people ( and apart from the new ridiculous pogo stick jumping up that she now does) is friendly with everyone. She is definitely not a fearful dog and I don't actually think she is aggressive. She is not guarding over anything either, but I am concerned about this inappropriate behaviour. I cannot understand what I have done wrong. She is also getting worse for chasing the cat etc but one thing at a time.... I have left a message with top barks to see if I can get some advice from him, but haven't heard back as yet.
I feel gutted that I put myself through all the hard work of getting a puppy rather than a rescue in order that I could know it's history and have a nice safe family dog and now I have  this!!!
If anyone has any ideas I'd be really interested. Sorry to rant.  Again.

[Leo0106]

Ohhh inca inca.... what are you doing to your poor humans... in fact.. I know exactly what you are doing and having read that post I'm sure you and Leo have met at some point and had a little devil chat together  .

Digger I feel your pain! I can't help much other than to say keep going! I referred to Leo as my perfect puppy the other day because he's like a different dog. Then we took him to a dog fun show this weekend, he saw my mum and got so excited and over stimulated that he launched into a full on teeth attack! I've got the bruises on my wrists to prove it..


I really do think every day is different for Leo and it sounds the same for inca but the ratio has defiantly switched from more bad days to more good days and that is an amazing feeling.
Not sure if we spoke about this is in the past but the best result we ever got was an absolute zero tolerance on anything teeth related. Teeth touching the sofa.. or my arm... or my bum was completely ignored. If I needed to I would put an item between us (usually a detached stairgate) to stop him from hurting me... the second he stopped the attacks or took his mouth away from whatever he was biting I would jump up, get him something nice like a toy or treat and use a key word like 'good off!' Or 'no bite!' .. Leo got this so quickly. I'm pretty sure sometimes he walks up to me as if to nip my leg just so he can get the treat for not doing it.

Just like inca, Leo will give me a little snap or nip if I hold his collar for any reason etc. To cure this we are trying to do some very short sessions of t-touch and grooming with him to make sure he is comfortable with contact. But this also takes a lot of time and dedication. We started that 8 months ago and sometimes I still need a treat to get his harness off.

I would say maybe try and read her body langauge. Everyone used to tell me dogs will give warning signs before biting etc but Leo regularly just used to walk up to me and bite my leg while I was cooking dinner.. however now I watch him closley. I watch the way he approaches me or the look on his eyes and I know instantly what his intentions are. (My OH is still learning this so needs warning from me )

Please keep us updated. Our dogs sound very similar so feel free to private message me if you ever want to!!   

[hoover]

Ages around 8-10 months were definitely the worst for this sort of obnoxious behaviour and we definitely found things improved from a general behaviour perspective after this time, so hopefully you will find likewise!  On the plus side it sounds like, although she is inappropriately snappy and quick to react, she has possibly got good bite inhibition if she is not causing injuries.

Our dog was similarly unhappy at this age at being touched on his collar and we worked hard to get follow through on commands so that he would remove himself from where we didn't want him to be rather than us having to remove him (not easy at the age Inca is now, but we definitely found that this got easier to implement in time).  For eg on sofas/beds we trained both 'get up' and 'get off' on the back of advice given on this forum, and Ollie was easy to instruct off of sofas after this without us needing to touch him. Its a tricky one - its like toddlers, when they are little you have to physically remove them from places but when they get more mature they should be better able to follow instructions.

You can also try building positive associations with the handling at less stressful times - so make a habit of touching the collar, gently leading at times that she is relaxed and treating her for not reacting at these times, and that might help her to lose the negative associations for collar touching at the moment, which probably only occurs when she is being thwarted from what she really wants to do!  When Ollie was reactive to being lifted (and more generally touched) we had to work 2 of us at a time - one to occupy the head with treats and the other to attempt the lift!  Worked very well and we still lift him and reward him every couple of days to maintain this positive association.

[Digger]

Thank you for your replies-yes Leo they do seem similar, and I will.

Hoover- thank you for your help. Your reference to the 8-10 months gives me hope!!. I hadn't really thought of it like that-that she may not be 'educated' enough to understand as it were. While she is clearly very intelligent, I have often said that she seems very immature. She often behaves very much like a really young pup still, and coupled with the (you are correct) very good bite inhibition, maybe she just hasn't quite clicked that she shouldn't use the teeth at all. Let's hope she's just taking a long time.
I took her to town today (do this periodically as we are quite rural where we live) and she was absolutely mobbed by a whole crowd of people who were on a tour of the town. She was hilariously friendly as she always is with strangers, and systematically went round each person in the group getting a fuss and tummy rubs. Further along the road a couple were sitting on a bench with their toddler , and wanted to say hello. Before I could do anything, the little boy had (gently) grabbed hold of her muzzle and was wiggling her around by it and smooching with her, fingers all over her face, near her eyes and everything. She was clearly loving it! She is so tolerant to touch it's bizarre, and we can  handle her anywhere-put harnesses on, pick her up, towel dry her etc I sometimes wonder if she just simply gets bored and thinks having a fight with me is an ok activity, because nothing else seems to fit the picture of a guarding or aggressive dog.
I have no idea. I suppose time will tell.
  This cocker business is an education that's for sure!

[PennyB]

often we find more dogs are rehomed through rescue at this time particularly the boys - while its worth being cautious, in most animal species they go backwards and begin with stuff they did as pups (or toddlers )

I recently fostered a young lab who was starting to get very 'grabby' when he got excited (he would grab my clothes as I tried to walk away) and mouthy which is why its often different than puppy biting and in theory if you've done your work re bite inhibition while its not acceptable it won't hurt as much unless like me you whip your hand away and they accidently catch you in wrong way and you end up being bruised

Its a challenging time for all adolescents of all breeds and animals (I went through it many times with young male cats which hurt lots but we got through it without them continuing to bite me in adulthood, which some make the mistake of doing).

I must admit I was lucky with Tanner recently as he had Stella my 7 year old spanielX to playfight with and rough house so all that went on to her instead of me.

Getting them to sit and focus is often useful - but that does take time. Its often best to see someone 1 to 1 for ideas as to deal with this and they can see how your dog is as well

[Digger]

Yes indeed penny b I do agree.
I was just telling someone that we took Inca to cornwall in the camper for a week at Easter (where she was immaculately behaved all week...?) and we were mobbed by people admiring her because of the way she looks ( and is always cuddly with strangers). The number of people that said 'that's what I'm going to get-she is so gorgeous and just the right size.  I spent most of the holiday having to say to people..hang on a minute- they are not your average pooch - they need huge input, time and effort. Even as a seasoned springer owner I am blown away by what hard work she is... A woman said to me yesterday that they are the 'in' dog now- especially black ones, as the royals have one! I ask you-How sad. I can see a lot of them ending up in rescue because people get them not knowing what to expect and then won't be able to cope.  I DID know what to expect and I'm still tearing my hair out at times! Mine will not end up in rescue but I bet there will be a lot that will. I do wish there was more screening for people who buy puppies, and perhaps a checklist for breeders so that they can advise on a more suitable breed. I have always maintained that you should have to do a course/ exam before qualifying to buy a puppy because so many poor dogs in rescue have issues that are so difficult to fix due to lack of early care and socialization in puppyhood. I devoted the first 16 weeks to our puppy for this purpose and still do not have a perfect youngster. I'm sure she will be fine long term but you do have to keep on top of everything as it comes up don't you?
Anyway I'm ranting again but needed saying I think.
Thanks again for your post.

[Pearly]

So, the good news is.....you’ve had a glimpse of how your girl will be once she fully mature, the not so good news is that you are headlong into the teenage phase.  I hope it’s a short one for you 

Once Inca is fully developed / mature in behaviours she is going to be a cracking dog.  More so due to the sheer amount of time and effort that you have (and will need to continue to) put in to her.

So rewarding when they come out the other side.

My best advice is to stock up on wine and chocolate