Author Topic: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation  (Read 541 times)

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Offline Mari

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2020, 06:31:10 PM »
Lovely to hear that things are a little steadier Mari.  Stability is what you want.  Different issue entirely, and not sure if it will help, but anyway, Max had a cyst on his liver, and as his condition progress, his poop became more orange in colour.  Not wishing to alarm you, I am off the mindset that information helps. It was one of the ways I could monitor change.  That was also when I started to use red clover and milk thistle to support his system.  He wasn't on any medication as it wasn't fixable, and the vet had no issue with it.

Thank you, I agree, information helps. Sorry to hear about Max and the cyst! I did think about the liver as soon as her poops turned yellow, so I was relieved that the vet thought EPI was the only problem. But then the blood sample revealed that the liver is unhappy too. If her liver values have not improved on the next blood test, we will do an ultrasound to see if there are any scary shapes in or around the liver.

Offline Mari

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2021, 08:42:03 PM »
New blood samples today. The liver looks happier so it seems the liver and bile duct meds are doing their job  :dance04: Vet wants us to continue another month before stopping them and checking if she can go without them. Very pleased with that. LauriŽ lost 100g over Christmas despite the enzymes helping her digestion. Trying to mix in a more digestible, energy-rich food to see if that helps keep her weight on. All in all pretty good news. The less good news is that she now has an incontinence issue. Ever since her spay surgery, she has occasionally leaked a few drops during heavy sleep, but now it is much more and every day. It's probably just due to her food being soaked and her water intake is higher. We got meds to try and help with this, but was warned it may not help. Might do a urine sample later, to be on the safe side but vet said there's no rush as her clinical exam was good and her blood sample normal. I was planning on getting to the appointment early and get the urine sample there, but on the way to the vet another car drove into the back of our car and that caused us to be late. It's been a day  :dunno: But all humans and pets are safe, LauriŽ's liver is happy, the car can be fixed  :blink:

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2021, 09:51:24 PM »
That does sound good news Mari, so pleased for you and Laurie! The incontinence is a bit of a pain but probably something youĎre happy to manage, the main thing is that sheĎs responding to treatment for the main problem.
Glad to hear that none of you were any the worse for your accident, - you always manage to see the positive side of things,   ;) well done! thatĎs the best medicine!  :luv:
 :bigarmhug: to Laurie!

Offline phoenix

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2021, 01:45:45 PM »
Epi enzymes often cause increased thirst and urination. Marti couldnít hold on for more than 2hrs in daytime. I bought a carpet shampoo machine.  She only dribbled a bit. It usually improves as they get used to the enzymes. Her urine tests were usually useless because they were too dilute.

Something else to think about is the occasional occurrence of A-typical Cushings disease,  which has inflammatory effects on organs including the liver and pancreas, and general musculature.  . Can cause urinary problems.  Some epi dogs have this condition,and the question is which came first, Epi or Atypical Cushings?
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline ejp

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2021, 04:18:17 PM »
Good update, glad to hear such positive news.  I like the sound of your vet, seems interested and approachable.  Would pasta help to bulk Laurie up a bit, not sure if it would be a suitable food though.

Offline phoenix

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2021, 05:13:19 PM »
The advice for fattening up is to increase their normal food + enzymes by 50%, introducing a midday meal. If the poos are normal a little coconut oil helps with calories . The wheat flour in pasta can feed bad gut bacteria.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline Mari

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2021, 01:22:13 PM »
Thanks again for encouragement and advice! I have been a little overwhelmed the last week. LauriŽ has decided she does not want anything to do with her normal food. She has an appetite and will beg for food when we eat, but she refuses to touch the food in her bowl. She is loosing weight. I have resorted to mixing things in her food just to get her to eat some of it, but it is not enough. I am feeling very worried about this. She is happy and healthy in all other ways, the incontinence has even gotten better. But she is not eating enough. I have tried 3 different foods. She will not eat it when it is wet and has enzymes on. I have to find a way to make her eat again. It's so strange, she was happy to eat it for 3 weeks straight, and now she will not touch it  :'(

Offline cazza

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2021, 05:55:24 AM »
Good to hear of her progress, sorry to hear about the car but glad all were unharmed  :luv:

Can you try her on chicken and rice for a day and slowly introduce her food back in - just a thought

Hope she is back eating really soon x x

Offline ejp

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2021, 06:06:13 PM »
Well, good that she is happy in herself and the incontinence has eased.  What does she normally eat, is it a kibble? How restricted is her diet just now, wondering what other options you have to tempt her. 

Offline phoenix

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2021, 09:15:08 PM »
In brief, epi  occurs when the exocrine  pancreas system  necrotises/rots away, and canít be improved.  Many people with cystic fibrosis suffer from it.  One of its roles is to produce digestive enzymes and aid digestion of vitamin B 12. Lipase which digests fats is the most important, plus amylase and protease.   So these are supplemented in every meal with pork pancreas enzymes as powder or in capsules. They taste vile, so  when Marti , like Laurie, refused them , I joined a global support website, epi4dogs dogs.  Iíve been messaging Mari.
 Our dogs  usually need grain free normal food. Powdered enzymes need cunning disguising, yogurt, fish, cat food etc.  Marti  went from starving  17kg  to healthy springer spaniel 24 kg.
Except in German Shepherds, it is rare, and few vets world wide are aware of it,   So two of our cocker members have experienced this, but maybe more,  as sometimes pancreatitis, which cockers are prone to,  leads into epi.  The symptoms are weight loss,  starving appetite,  sudden  fatty yellow/grey cowpat poops. Canít pick them up, very embarrassing.
Elderly dogs like Lauri have complex conditions,  but if they can eat and digest the food with added enzymes,  they gain weight and can respond to their other issues.
  Sorry for the lecture notes, but  I passionately  try to spread knowledge of the condition.  It is so controllable, and dogs will live their normal lifespan. 
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline ejp

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2021, 10:32:13 PM »
Thank you Phoneix, that is really interesting and I appreciate, very much, the time taken to post.  I love this kind of information. 

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2021, 07:08:43 AM »
Thankyou Pheonix! I hope that we wonĎt ever need it but its always very useful  to have information  like this, it could be a life saver.
Fingers and paws tightly crossed that Laurie can be persuaded to eat something soon!  :luv:

Offline Mari

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2021, 11:25:31 AM »
Love lecture notes! Knowledge is everything! It's "funny", I have followed a youtube vlogger for years now, she has cystic fibrosis and she always chants cheerfully: "don't forget to take your enzymes" whenever she films a meal. So now I sing that phrase every time I prepare a meal for LauriŽ.
She is still not eating enough. I am trying different things. Her normal veterinary-diet kibble is out, I have tried a number of different wet foods and a handful of kibble, from grain-free to supermarket junk food. She will eat some the first time I serve it, but then refuse.
I will be getting her b12 and probiotic supplements this week as well. I am very worried about her weight, she is such a small dog and she really does not have much to lose. She was down to 9,2 a few days ago. She should be closer to 10kg. She is still happy, cuddly, and playful, but her energy level is lower, for obvious reasons. I am very worried.
I knew about EPI superficially, you hear of it occurring in german shepherds. But I had never heard of an older dog developing it so suddenly. LauriŽ has never had pancreatitis or any other diseases that could predispose her to EPI. My vet says it's not unheard of for geriatric dogs to get it just because they are old and organs sometimes give up.
When I saw the pale, yellow, soft poohs I knew something was up with either liver, bile or pancreas. My vet was very quick to diagnose it based on my description of the poops and the dog not showing other signs of illness. Happy, skinny dogs - classical EPI.
The advice from phoenix and the epi4dogs forum is valuable. My vet is very good, I chose her because I know she is a nerd (in the best possible way) when it comes to internal medicine. But she has not lived with an epi dog. She knows what tests to run, what medicins to prescribe and what nutrition to recommend. The day-to-day of having a dog with epi is the type of expertise you get from other owners  :luv:

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2021, 11:38:15 AM »
 :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: and love  from us, wish I had some advice to give!  :luv:

Offline Mari

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Re: EPI, liver and bile duct inflammation
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2021, 11:58:32 AM »
:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: and love  from us, wish I had some advice to give!  :luv:

 :luv: A forum like this, where people care and understand is a huge support.