What age puppy?

[Cob-Web]

Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,

No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:

I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled 

So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?

No, it means that they will have experienced less than their litter mates will have done (assuming that their littermates have been socialised in the way Gwen Bailey (and many other experienced dog trainers/behaviourists) recommend 

I couldn't socialise our pups on public transport if I wanted to as the local bus company only allows guide dogs and we're out in the country so not exactly handy for trains

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

[Rhona W]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

And more to the point. Is it actually a question you would ask of a prospective owner of one of your pups? 

[Cob-Web]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

And more to the point. Is it actually a question you would ask of a prospective owner of one of your pups? 

That's my point - so much emphasis is put on early socialisation in books and articles (including the ones on this site), that surely the placement of an older puppy (that may, or may not, have had experience of the things it will encounter in its new home) should be given special consideration by both the breeder and the prospective owner??

My OP on this thread was in response to LegalBeagles request for peoples thoughts - somehow, my thoughts have been taken as breeder-bashing - which was never the case 

[CraftySam]

Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,

No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:

I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled 

So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?

No, it means that they will have experienced less than their litter mates will have done (assuming that their littermates have been socialised in the way Gwen Bailey (and many other experienced dog trainers/behaviourists) recommend 

I couldn't socialise our pups on public transport if I wanted to as the local bus company only allows guide dogs and we're out in the country so not exactly handy for trains

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

I am an avid believer in early socialisation and do as much as possible. But at 12 weeks old it doesn't suddenly become incapable of accepting new things. Even with a pup we got at 8 weeks we would still be introducing it to new things at 12 weeks old and far beyond. Yes it may take a little longer but it is by no means inpossible to successfully socialise a pup that you get at 12 weeks old.

Consider how many new things are dogs encounter every day even when they're 1 or older.

[Jane S]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience

[silkstocking]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience

Ditto Nancy who came to me from a house with 10 Cockers to my house with 1 Totally took it in her stride, and she was 5 months old, and a total mummys ( who is now her aunty 'coz I'm her mummy!!!!) girl!!!

I TOTALLY AGREE about them not having to experiencing everything by a certain age to accept things later in life, its just not possible to fit EVERY experience in to early socialisation! IMO socialisation IS ONGOING

[Rhona W]

somehow, my thoughts have been taken as breeder-bashing - which was never the case 

Well perhaps you should word your posts more carefully then. You said:

I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled 

You cannot possibly know that as a fact and yet posted it as one.  Some pups may go home at 8 weeks and not leave the house again until they are fully vaccinated.  So staying the extra weeks with the breeder may be better for them. 

[Colin]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience

Yep, Stevie has taken everything in her stride - she was a bit tentative of a few things at first, particularly buses and lorries thundering past us as we waited to cross the road - but after a few days she was fine. I'd agree that if the breeder has done a good general socialisation programme then it prepares the puppy/dog for other things it may not encounter until it's older.

Gwen Bailey gives a checklist of various types of people, animals, environments etc - with little boxes to tick upto the age of 10 months - she doesn't say you have to tick them all, or by a certain age. It's only a rough guide of things too - for example travelling on public transport isn't even on it. She also advises to take care not to overwhelm your pup - presumably she means not to flood it with too much too soon. Obviously socialisation is crucial but we can't all cover everything straight away.

As ever, it's all about choosing the right breeder - ones like Jane and Michele who know what they are doing and socialise their pups as best they can in preparation for their new homes. To me that's more important than the age of the pup. ( I personally wouldn't get an older pup that had lived all it's life in an outdoor kennel though. )

[Abby]

LegalBeagle - we got Clive at 13 weeks and he was living in the breeders home with some of his littermates. I don't think he's had any particular problems settling in to life. We were very conscientious about socialising him to different things when we got him home, just like you would with an 8 week old and he is a great dog. If you are just concerned about the age of hte pup you have found, but are happy with teh breeder, I would say go for it. But if you are concerned you aren't quite ready, perhaps it would be better to wait - another pup will come along and pups do turn your life upside down very easily (in a lovely way of course)


As for this whole public transport thing, I have to say I think its going a little far. As far as I know, Clive had never even been near any and yet he hapoily comes to the train station to see me off every morning  and has done so from about five months, and is also happy to go on the trains which he does at least as often as going in a car (we don't own one so we only hire one occasionally). Considering he wouldn't have gone on a train until he was about five months, we had no problems.

[silkstocking]

Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? 

As ever, it's all about choosing the right breeder - ones like Jane and Michele who know what they are doing and socialise their pups as best they can in preparation for their new homes. To me that's more important than the age of the pup. ( I personally wouldn't get an older pup that had lived all it's life in an outdoor kennel though. )

Totally agree!!

Like I said before Nancy was 5 months and lived in ( all my breeders dogs do, which I like). And I know before I brought Nance home my breeder had deliberatly started taking her out on walks just with one other dog because thats how she would be walked here. Colins right it is defiently all about choosing the right breeder, the one that goes that extra mile

Neither of these two have been on public transport either and they are both over 2, although are well socialised and very socialable, I feel rest assured that if I did take them on public transport it wouldn't phase them, even though they didn't exeperience it in there first 12 weeks I think it has alot to do wth the temprement of the dog, how the react to different things but thats just my opinion!

And in answer to Legal Beagles original question, I can't see why a 12 week old puppy would have a probelm settling in at all, especially if you are confidnet you have found a good breeder Good Luck Legal Beagle!!

[Jenny]

We got barney at 16 weeks and tried really hard to expose him to everything and anything!  He took a wee while to settle down but is now a super, boisterous, playful dog who loves other people, dogs, cats anything!

[Cob-Web]

I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience

Thanks for posting this Jane - I was starting to think I had imagined it all 

Do you think there are actual benefits for the pups staying with their mum/littermates longer (assuming the breeder and the owner offer the same level of socialisation)?

[silkstocking]

I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience

Thanks for posting this Jane - I was starting to think I had imagined it all 

Personally I would rather trust the word of a reputable breeder like Jane, than what I read in books. Books can be taken far too literally by some. Its the same with the gumph some of the early years advisory teachers wrote we had to read, we were forever saying, well thats fine in THEORY, but its not the case in our experience!! EXPERIENCE is defo they key!

[*Jay*]

Two of my current dogs were brought home after 8 weeks of age - Dallas was 11 weeks and Aspen was just over 5 months. They were both kennelled outside with other dogs and I don't think either of them had much socialistaion, if any. Dallas was very anxious about everything - travelling in the car, traffic noises, general day to day household noises etc and took quite a while to settle. He also fell ill with gastroenteritis the day after I brought him home so that didn't help things. Aspen had never been in a car, had never had a collar or lead on, wasn't toilet trained etc but he adapted very well. He struggled a bit with the lead walking and the toilet training issues are STILL on going but he is such a happy, friendly boy and loves other people and dogs.

I know I've been very lucky that they both have sound temperaments but if I was to take on an older pup again, it would definitely have to have been home reared and had some sort of socialisation programe started for me to comtinue

[LurcherGirl]

I think there is one thing to remember: even if a puppy has not experienced everything they will ever encounter in their lives, they can still get used to things at an older age. I have three rescue dogs, none of them were ever on public transport before we got them. Now, two of them (the third one never had to) are absolutely perfect on trains, trams etc. and settle down without problems... in fact, Dylan wants to get onto every train that goes past when waiting at the station.

Yes, it is important to socialise a pup properly, but that doesn't mean it has to see and hear absolutely everything it will ever see and hear as an adult; but it means that the puppy is taught to getting used to new situations so it won't have any problems getting used to new situations as an adult dog that he has never encountered before as a puppy. In other words, if a dog learns to cope in new and perhaps stressful situations (by socialising it as much as possible at a young age), then they will do just that as adults!

I fully expect to be able to take our two older dogs onto any kind of public transport now, eventhough they might never have been on it before, I fully expect them to adjust to new scenarios quickly and trust me, even if they have never seen it before.

It is an individual dog thing... our second lurcher comes from a very similar background as our older lurcher, but he is much less flexible, is still worried about new situations, takes much more time getting used to things... whereas our older lurcher is comfortable and confident in almost any situation that life throws at him now!

So, yes, go and socialise your pups as much as possible (hey, so will I in a few weeks when we bring ours home) and take it wherever you can; but don't panic if you are not able to do one thing or the other... chances are good that an otherwise well socialised dog will be able to adapt to almost any new situation.