Red / golden

[kalami]

Is 'red' classed as an actual colour?
Bella is registered as golden, but we think she is 'red'.
When we first went to puppy training someone actually asked us if she was a red setter puppy 

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/kalami05/PICT3839.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/kalami05/PICT3272.jpg

[Mari]

Glad you asked, because I've been thinking about the same thing. On her hungarian pedigree Laurië is gold, but here in norway she is red  I had never heard of a golden cocker before I got my dog, as far as I know they are called red where I come from. I'm confused again 

[Jane S]

Yes red is a recognised colour - it is a deeper, richer shade than golden. Red and Golden are however genetically the same colour - it's the presence of other modifying genes which will determine whether the colour will be darker (red) or paler (golden).

[Mari]

Sorry, I hope it's ok that I ask in this thread, I don't want to make another one almost exactly like this one, and I have so many questions now   

Thanks Jane, these colour genetics are really complicated aren't they!
But how is it decided if the dog should be classified as red or gold? Can the breeder sort of choose what to put on the pedigree or?
I noticed that Bella is darker red than my dog (she is gorgeous by the way ), are they both golden or should they be called red?
I also noticed that Bella has a lovely lighter colour nose, and the skin around the eyes is light where it's black on my dog,
does that have anything to do with colour of the coat or with how you would classify the dogs colour?

[Jane S]

Yes the breeder decides what colour to register their pups so it's entirely up to him/her whether they think a pup is a golden or a red. No doubt some goldens are registered as reds when they turn out to be goldens and vice versa as it's not an exact science and not all breeders are aware of the differences anyway

A brown nose and eye rims (also foot pads) on a red/golden means that that dog carries two recessive liver genes (if it didn't also carry two recessive red/gold genes, the dog would actually be a solid liver). This combination of genes generally produces a paler coat colour usually called lemon so it would be unusual to have a true red Cocker with liver pigmentation. However, sometimes the noses on red/golds (and on orange particolours too) can go a brown colour particularly in winter time (hence the expression "winter nose") This is a pigmentation issue and not really anything to do with genetics (winter noses go black again usually )

[Mari]

Thank you so much for explaining all this to me 

My girl has winter nose this year, I asked about it in here some weeks ago, I thought she was sick since her nose went brown over night  I learn something new every day. Brown noses are lovely so I don't mind. ..So my golden puppy grew up to be red, I've always wanted a red cocker  too bad I named her Laurië (means golden).

[skyesmum]

But she is a gorgeous girl - look at those ears!   

[Mari]

But she is a gorgeous girl - look at those ears!   

Was that for us? Thanks, I think so, wouldn't care if she was purple, still a beauty!  If it was directed at Bella, I still agree, she looks absolutely gorgeous in both pictures!    I believe all cockers have the cute curse  walk down a busy city street and you hear "awwww" from all directions, it's the cocker ears, people love cocker ears and of course their waggy bums add to the cute factor!

[hovis]

................'winter nose'........now thats what I call 'naughty nose' coz Hovis is gold with a black nose usually and when it goes brown its normally just before he does something naughty!!

[Nicola]

Rodaidh's nose was a liverish colour when I got him in June but in the last few weeks it's gone much paler with a dark outline - it looks like someone has drawn round the outside with a brown eyeliner pencil    His coat has gone darker as well, he's still golden on his chest, belly and legs but his back is a darker reddish colour.

[kalami]

in the last few weeks it's gone much paler with a dark outline - it looks like someone has drawn round the outside with a brown eyeliner pencil    

same with bellas i thought it was dirt 

[kalami]

I'm still a bit confused with colourings and genes. Bellas 'red' one of her siblings is light golden, there were liver puppies and orange roan puppies - similar to yours Jane s, how do you end up with such different colours?

[kalami]

Am slowly getting there

"The genes for black ( and liver (b) are the same gene with black being dominant. They affect skin color as well as coat.
The gene for red is not the same as the gene for black and liver. Red (e) is recessive to the gene for "no red" (E). If a dog carries the dominant gene for "no red", it will be black coated(unless it also carries the two recessive genes for liver, in which case it will be liver coated.) If it carries two genes for red (e) it will be red.
This is why you can have reds with liver noses. Liver nosed red bred to a liver or to a black that carries for liver, such a breeding will produce solid livers. If that liver carrier also carries for red, such a breeding will produce liver nosed reds as well"

Now i need to understand where the orange roans came from

[Jane S]

Now i need to understand where the orange roans came from

It's the same gene as red/gold (ee) but with an orange roan the dog also has two copies of the recessive spotting gene which makes it a particolour not a solid (bit of an over simplified explanation just to give you the general idea)