Have i made a big mistake?

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

sorry Not sure if this should be in puppies or working. Jacks 10mths old and we plan on working him when hes older but I think iv messed up with some of Jacks commands
Jack doesnt know down (as in command lie down). I really cant remember why we didnt teach him this but sure we had some stupid reason at the time, he also doesnt know stand still for his stop command but sits iyswim
Jack will sit to whistle, verbal command and hand signal and im not sure if we have over used it.
Sit means sit until your released so iv never taught him the command stay though he doesnt move from being told to sit until hes recalled or told to get on.
Jack will now sit at distance to hand signal and whistle but im not sure if he should be taught to just stop, stand still and look back so hes not having to sit.
When im out with Jack he does stop and look at me alot  so i dont think training him to stop and look back without sitting will be a problem but is it something he needs to do or is sitting to stop him ok?
 would it be better for him to have two seperate commands so his stop means look at me im about to ask you to do something and then his sit at distance can be a wait there?
Also do i need to start teaching him down aswell as sit so he can do that reliably?
sorry for the long confusing post just having one of those days where i feel like iv really messed things up for Jack

[Nicola]

From reading your post I don't think you've made any mistakes, it sounds like Jack is doing pretty well. I've done a list of commands I use for my lot and what they're for if you want to compare. Rodaidh responds to varying strengths of the stop whistle and different hand signals for different commands,

long hard blast on stop whistle - stop, lie down and look at me
shorter soft blast on stop whistle - stop, stay standing and look at me
arm out palm outwards - stop, stay standing and look at me
arm out palm down and downwards movement - stop, lie down and look at me

I use the harder whistle if he's made a flush and the guns are about to go off so he's down out of the way and I use the softer one if he's hunting for a bird or dummy and I want to stop him on his feet so I can signal him to look somewhere else as he will need this for competitions. Alfie and Tilly will stop to the whistle, verbal command and hand signal but they don't sit or lie down unless I tell them to, they stop but stay standing and this doesn't affect their working on shoots at all. I'm not really bothered what they do as long as they actually stop and pay attention to me, it's only Rodaidh who I really need to respond to more nuanced commands. That Jack sits to the whistle, verbal command and hand signal and at distance is really good and I don't think that him sitting to the stop whistle is going to be an issue on a shoot but if you want to train him to stop and look at you but not sit then do it, it certainly won't do him any harm to know it but I wouldn't say it's essential for him as a working dog. As for teaching him to lie down I would probably do this as well, again it's not absolutely essential but it's not a difficult one to teach and shouldn't take very long. 

I use the following verbal commands with all 3 of them...

'sit' or 'down' - sit or lie down until I tell you to do something else, that could be 10 seconds or 10 minutes
'whoa!' - stop, stay standing and look at me
'look!' - to get their attention, usually used if they have their heads stuck in a bush or something and I just want them to look up
'wait' - used on walks if they're off lead they don't go any further until I catch up with them and also when getting out of the car so they don't just leap out as soon as I open the door
'stay' - don't use very often but they know what it means so use it sometimes to reinforce the 'sit' or 'down' in a very high distraction environment (usually for Alfie!)

[laurenollie]

I use the following verbal commands with all 3 of them...

'sit' or 'down' - sit or lie down until I tell you to do something else, that could be 10 seconds or 10 minutes
'whoa!' - stop, stay standing and look at me
'look!' - to get their attention, usually used if they have their heads stuck in a bush or something and I just want them to look up
'wait' - used on walks if they're off lead they don't go any further until I catch up with them and also when getting out of the car so they don't just leap out as soon as I open the door
'stay' - don't use very often but they know what it means so use it sometimes to reinforce the 'sit' or 'down' in a very high distraction environment (usually for Alfie!)

Both your dogs sound amazingly good!!

If only Ollie could do these!!! Not that I plan on working him but he's a devil in the fields for not listening - fancy training him Nicola???!!!

L&O x

[Nicola]

- fancy training him Nicola???!!!

L&O x

Sure, just bung him in the post and I'll see what I can do

[lisalh]

Well if you are offering a dog training service hows about I pop Fred in the post to you and in return you can send me your 3 til you have sorted Fred out!!!

[Nicola]

Well if you are offering a dog training service hows about I pop Fred in the post to you and in return you can send me your 3 til you have sorted Fred out!!!

Deal!!   Although I wouldn't subject anyone to both of the boys together just now so you can have one brown girl and one spotty boy to replace yours

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

thanks nicola thats put my mind at rest.
I sometimes feel a bit lost with Jack, hes our pet and i know some of the other dog walkers think we are cruel because we dont let him run riot doing what he wants but then i also worry im not capable of training him to a good working standard. Find it hard knowing the right balance sometimes.

[Top Barks]

sounds very impressive.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

while iv got a thread open i thought id ask another Q
If i stand still when were out Jack will run back like iv recalled him to check in and if i stop and chat to someone he comes in and sits at my left hand side. when i tell him to get on he potters around but stays very close to me if im not moving and if the person im talking to has another dog he doesnt seem to play with them.
 Sometimes he will play with other dogs but if they run off to far or go out of sight Jack will stop playing and come back to me. I know this is where other people think were being cruel but i dont like Jack being out of my sight and have trained him through hide and seek and chase games to be able to see me at all times.
Also if other dogs are playing on the other side of the field Jacks not allowed to run up he has to wait and walk up with me but i only did that because i didnt want him running long distances away from me.
He also never allowed to approach dogs without being told its ok to but i only did that so he wasnt running up to everydog he saw and if a dogs on lead i can walk him past without having to lead Jack up.
We do have alot of fun out and play lots of games together and Jack gets to do his favourite thing which is nose to ground following scent and he does have dogs and some people he absolutly loves that he also plays with but hes a little choosy which im fine with.
Do you think iv put to much control on him? everything hes learnt has been through games and having fun but should he have more freedom?
Then i get off my OH that Jack works too far out and should be brought in more but he only goes about 30ft on front of me, is that too much?
Sorry again for the long post any advice is much appreciated

[Top Barks]

Again sounds very impressive to me

[laurenollie]

To me it sounds like the perfect dog with very good manners whether he's a working dog or not.

I really want to teach Ollie to only approach a dog with my say so but have no idea how? He loves to run up and greet every dog

L&O x

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

Cheers, i just sometimes feel i cant do right for doing wrong.
I walked Jack up to a group of playing dogs the other day and he did join in but someone made this really snide remark while we were walking over about "here comes the well behaved one" but said it in a nasty way!
Then i have also had how tail docking is illegal now,Jack shouldnt be docked, dogs that are "just pets" can have more fun running riot, working dogs is cruel blah blah
Jacks extreamly affectionate with me and will sit at my side to be stroked or if im sat on a bench hel sit next to me for a cuddle which i like but hes not a fan of being stroked by strangers which i think is his choice. If someone trys to stroke him he will move away unless he knows them (then they get big cocker hugs) and some dogs hes not interested in he just ignores which again i dont mind but then i get accused of making my dog snobby!

[Top Barks]

I think it's great that he values being with you more than running with other dogs.
As for being stroked by strange humans then who can blame him for not liking it.

[Nicola]

Again this sounds very much like how I am with Rodaidh. The fact is if you're training a dog to work properly then you do have to strike a balance between allowing them enough freedom to enjoy themselves and develop their hunting initiative but not letting them ever get into the habit of going too far from you or just taking themselves off when they fancy it. I learned this the hard way with Alfie, I let him away with far too much as a young pup and boy did I pay for it later, he was incredibly hard to train and will never be as natural at it as Rodaidh is. They're two very different dogs though which is also a factor, Rodaidh always naturally wanted to stay within range of me whereas Alfie, er, didn't

If I stop to talk to someone I expect Rodaidh to stop and wait for me, he can pooter around at my feet if I don't tell him to sit but he knows not to go more than about 4-5 feet from me when I'm standing still. Likewise he's not allowed to go too far from me at any time when we're out, I keep him in range of about  about 20-25 feet although he'll go further or stay closer if I tell him to. If we're on a walk he of course can hooley around with the other dogs but on the rare occasions he might want to run a bit further than usual I whistle him back and make it into a game for him. He only goes out of my sight if I specifically send him to hunt in a certain area and he doesn't run up to other dogs or other people, I don't let any of them do this. He can 'speak' to other dogs if they're friendly and their owner oks it but I call him in to heel to approach them and then release him. Out of mine only Alfie really likes being touched by strangers, Tilly keeps well out of the way of people and dogs she doesn't know and Rodaidh isn't hugely keen on strange people either although he likes other dogs.

Jack sounds like he's shaping up to be a great working dog  I do know the dilemma you're having though of finding that balance (because a lot of working dogs unfortunately don't have that and are barely allowed to breathe without permission and that is most definitely not how I want mine to be ), it's hard sometimes thinking 'am I being too strict with him?' but then thinking that if I don't enforce the ground rules he won't know where his boundaries are for working. Really though I think it sounds like you're doing a great job

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I think it's great that he values being with you more than running with other dogs.

I cheat i have magical dog walking bag with all sorts of high value toys and treats in it  
Plus its much funnier for Jack to have his mum running round like a raving lunatic shouting and clapping while he chases me,
im sure hes loving me making a fool out of myself when we play