Show vs Working - what's the difference?

[Jane S]

I've removed the direct quotes from the breeders' website as it's easy to identify them using this info (I did it within seconds using Google) We have to be careful talking about breeders by name or where they are easily identifiable so it's best to keep things general if poss

Hip scores are added together to get a total score so 4:6 would give a hip score total of 10. The BVA advises that breeders choose parents "well below" the breed mean average score (which is 13 in Cockers as at November 2009) so anything below 13 is perfectly acceptable.

[mooching]

I've removed the quote from the breeders' website as it's easy to identify them using this info (I did it within seconds using Google) We have to be careful talking about breeders by name or where they are easily identifiable so it's best to keep things general if poss
[/quote[
Oh sorry!! I didn't realise google would pick that up!

Hip scores are added together to get a total score so 4:6 would give a hip score total of 10. The BVA advises that breeders choose parents "well below" the breed mean average score (which is 13 in Cockers as at November 2009) so anything below 13 is perfectly acceptable.

Thanks for the explanation!!

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know 

[Jane S]

I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know 

Hopefully not anymore

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know 

Hopefully not anymore

nope not now from a google search 

[ginnygirl]

I have Ginny who is a WC. She is an extremely busy girl who needs LOTS of time but I am rewarded for the effort put in by a well behaved (hope I havent jinxed myself there ) dog who gives a lot of love to the family. I dont know what I did with my time before!Sorry Ive never had a SC so cant compare.  

[maggieann]

I can't compare the two as I've only ever had show types - but I've found SC have plenty of stamina.
I go running nearly every day with my dog, we also go hiking and mountain climbing and on the few days when the weather is so bad that we can't get out my dog is quite happy to snooze on the couch.
At home we do clicker training and our own version of agility - which he absolutely loves.   

[6thSense]

The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).

I don't want you to get the impression show-type dogs are lazy couch potatoes although some might be There are plenty of show-type Cockers who love nothing more than long walks in the countryside and who also enjoy activities like agility. When I used to do more hiking than I do now (when I was fitter ), I always used to take a couple of our show dogs with me & they were more than capable of doing long hikes but equally if I wasn't going out for a long walk, then they'd be equally happy with a shorter walk & then mooching around the garden with me. If a working Cocker would suit you better, then that's fine but just didn't want you to get the wrong idea about show-type dogs.

I agree. I have 5 show cockers and 5 less lazy dogs you could never meet. Harvey my Rescue is more docile than the other 4, but still pretty lively. I do Agility with Morgana who is by far the madest of my bunch and never stops when we're out. She is such a busy bee and when we go on walks we joke that she covers 3 or 4 times the amount of ground we do. She loves her Agility and is extremely keen. I have done a bit with one of my others as well and she also loves it although isn't quite as manic as Morgana. 

Ill proberly get slatted for saying this but my research led me to believe there is less tendacy for genetic health problems in working strain. They're bred to be fit enough to work not to meet a cosmetic standard so as a result there is less incidence of joint and hip problems.I believe a dog should be bred to be fit for its original purpose and not for a cosmetic standard.

Really? I'd love to see the research for that claim, if you still have it? Unfortunately the working community are way behind the show breeders when it comes to health testing but thankfully that is beginning to change and we are now seeing more working strain dogs being health screened. But until more working dogs are tested, it's impossible to come to any conclusions about their health status - you can certainly find poor hip scores recorded amongst the few working bred dogs to be scored so any complacency about their hip health may be somewhat misplaced.

Also the "cosmetic standard" you mention has been in existence since the 1900s and was drawn up by working men - it described a solid, compact dog with totally unexaggerated conformation and still does now. I think people who slate the breed standard often haven't even read it - if they did, they might be pleasantly surprised

Again I couldn't agree more. 

[Pip895]

I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.

When looking for my working cocker I didn’t find this split (perhaps its area dependant?) - Indeed as I wanted a pet I ruled out puppies not bread in the home which narrowed my options considerably. In the end I found a home bread pup but she is full worker and indeed a couple of her litter mates have gone to working homes.  I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog.  Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker.

If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way.  One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents.

[vixen]

If pet owners acquire a worker cocker knowing what they are taking on and are prepared, that's fine but I do worry that some workers are being sold to unsuspecting owners who just want a cocker spaniel and do not realize the difference and breeders are not telling them.
As workers become more and more popular, disreputable breeders are taking advantage.
I have seen the consequences when working bred spaniels have been sold as pets and the owners have done nothing with the dogs and then wonder why their dogs are hyper.
Last year there was an incident on the canal near me when an uncontrolled spaniel dived in, pulled out a large cygnet and killed it in front of the owners who just stood screaming at it
I am not being negative about the ownership of working cockers as pets or implying that all of them will cause a problem, I am just being negative about the rise in disreputable breeders who don't inform the buyers as to what they are purchasing.
I have two workers myself who are the light of my life - fun, happy and very very biddable and they are just pets.

[Sarah1985]

Really? I'd love to see the research for that claim, if you still have it? Unfortunately the working community are way behind the show breeders when it comes to health testing but thankfully that is beginning to change and we are now seeing more working strain dogs being health screened. But until more working dogs are tested, it's impossible to come to any conclusions about their health status - you can certainly find poor hip scores recorded amongst the few working bred dogs to be scored so any complacency about their hip health may be somewhat misplaced.

Also the "cosmetic standard" you mention has been in existence since the 1900s and was drawn up by working men - it described a solid, compact dog with totally unexaggerated conformation and still does now. I think people who slate the breed standard often haven't even read it - if they did, they might be pleasantly surprised

When I say research i mean my personal research not published. My friend took her lab to have major hip op due to hip dysplacer. He was going in to see a specialist I noticed a springer in the waiting room so decided to enquire as to what breeds they see the most often coming in for treatment. Both the vet and the nurse agreed labs were the most frequent and that spaniels dont have too much of a problem if the parents are hip scored but he did say that he very very rarely see working cockers coming through his door.

With regards the cosmetic standard Im very interested tto know why the division came about in cockers and why they are now so far removed. Can anyone here tell me about the history of it all?

If im honest i prefer the look of a working cocker as I like the high shorter ears but I must admit i presumed the difference came about due to the cosmetic preference, amoungst the show strain for big ears and the more domey head. Is this not the case? My presumtion came about because logic tells me that if the show strain werent being bred meet cosmetic standards why is there the division there is today? Why are the 2 strains so cosmetically different? Or is it that the working strain have evolved as they are now being used for retervial as well as flushing, leaving the show strain still to the old "design"?

Sorry for my ignorance on this subject, I know as a admirer and owner of cocker spaniels i should know my history. 

[HeatherandBenjy]

If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you.

The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).

We have show and working cockers. Both our show cockers enjoy long walks and games, the difference between them and the worker, is that if one day they have a shorter walk its fine, if Fizzy our worker doesn't have enough exercise / stimulation (we've just finished two weeks house rest as she broke a toe  ) then we really know about it!

Buddy, our almost 10 year old show cocker enjoyed a three hour walk in the fells of the Lake District just last weekend...
Fizzy (6 year old worker) enjoyed walking all 84 miles of Hadrian's Wall in 6 days last summer..... and would like to know when we're going again please!

One final comment, with the workers especially, you'll not tire them out physically. You have to keep them mentally stimulated by training, agility, flyball or gundog training. They're busy dogs with a brain and if you don't direct what they use it on, then its probably your house that will suffer! 

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.

I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog.  Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker.

If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way.  One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents.

I really hope I can explain this properly without being lynched or offending anyone but here goes  

There are over 200 of breeds out there already and 271,719 pups were registered with the kennel club in 2008   thats obviously not counting all the un registered pups born

so we have a situation in this country where way too many dogs are being bred already we really dont need to change a WORKING bred to fit a pet market.

Say it wouldnt damage true workers and it would be possible to split the bred into pet/worker and bred pet dogs with lower drive/more laid back what would be the possible reason in bringing yet more pet dogs into the world when there are so many already. So people who want a working cocker but without the traits that make it a working cocker can have a watered down version as a pet  .

 say someone decided to bred for the pet market and and took two really laid back pet dogs and mated them, three pups are really laid back, three have really high drives what happens to those three  

Working people wont want them because there not docked and the parents aren't proven workers, people wanting a pet cant handle them so do we cull them  

At the moment what happens is they go to pet homes and get handed into rescue with a truck load of problems at a later date.

Its a fact that sinse workers have became a popular pet more and more have ended up in rescue, the large majority of workers that go to rescue are ones from pet homes.

If people choose to research the breed as it is a WORKING dog, not a crappy watered down version and decide they are going to do what it takes to meet that dogs needs in a pet home, fine there are some very happy workers on here in pet homes because there owners work their butts off to keep them happy. BUT no way sould the breed be changed to fit this market.

[mark1]

I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.

I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog.  Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker.

If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way.  One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents.

I really hope I can explain this properly without being lynched or offending anyone but here goes  

There are over 200 of breeds out there already and 271,719 pups were registered with the kennel club in 2008   thats obviously not counting all the un registered pups born

so we have a situation in this country where way too many dogs are being bred already we really don't need to change a WORKING bred to fit a pet market.

Say it wouldn't damage true workers and it would be possible to split the bred into pet/worker and bred pet dogs with lower drive/more laid back what would be the possible reason in bringing yet more pet dogs into the world when there are so many already. So people who want a working cocker but without the traits that make it a working cocker can have a watered down version as a pet  .

 say someone decided to bred for the pet market and and took two really laid back pet dogs and mated them, three pups are really laid back, three have really high drives what happens to those three  

Working people wont want them because there not docked and the parents aren't proven workers, people wanting a pet cant handle them so do we cull them  

At the moment what happens is they go to pet homes and get handed into rescue with a truck load of problems at a later date.

Its a fact that sinse workers have became a popular pet more and more have ended up in rescue, the large majority of workers that go to rescue are ones from pet homes.

If people choose to research the breed as it is a WORKING dog, not a crappy watered down version and decide they are going to do what it takes to meet that dogs needs in a pet home, fine there are some very happy workers on here in pet homes because there owners work their butts off to keep them happy. BUT no way sould the breed be changed to fit this market.

I totally agree with the sentiment that working breeds should be left alone. The problem is that we bred dogs for hundreds of years for various purposes and those purpose have then disappeared and we have been left with dogs that as pets can be demanding at best and we wonder why. How many people bought Dalmatians after seeing the Disney film without a clue they were originally bred to run alongside horse drawn carriages. How many have been discarded after owners realised they needed more exercise than they could give. Working Cockers have a high drive for a purpose, but that is not saying they can't make great pets but to people who understand their needs and give that stimulation in some form. The answer is surely not to water down working breeds but to choose a dog that suits an individuals lifestyle and not being so obsessed by the physical appearance.

[Karma]

I think I agree with Crazy Cocker Gang - the working lines shouldn't be altered to adapt a dog to a pet market, but I do think that more Working Cocker breeders should perhaps be more open to some of their pups going to suitable pet homes.  Surely not every pup which is bred from good working parents is going to be a good worker in and of itself?  What happens to these dogs if they don't make the grade at working?

I think the reason there are so many workers in rescue (coming from pet homes) is because a lot of pet homes don't know they are getting a worker.  We didn't (Honey is 3/4 Working, but her Dam looked entirely Show - turns out she was half and half), but we adapted and made sure we met her needs.  

I think it's one of these viscious circles at the minute - it can take so very long for someone to get a well bred pup from a reputable breeder (whether this is a show cocker or a working cocker), and for working pups a lot of breeders wouldn't entertain a non-working home.  So those people who really want a pup, but are frustrated at the wait, will go to those less reputable breeders, who don't tell them what kind of Cocker they are getting, and don't give good back up.  These pups are most likely to end up in rescue...  
If there were more well bred pups available, I think most people would want the well bred pup - but then there would be a huge surplus of the poorly bred pups, as no-one would need to go to those breeders.

I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding for the pet market, as long as the dogs you are breeding are good examples of that breed.  There are very good breeders of show cockers who don't expect that their pups are all going to be at Crufts next year, but they still choose their matings carefully to ensure they would meet show standard, and with relevant health tests and temperament considerations.  

I know it's a very emotive subject, and I don't expect people to agree with me, but the way I see it is that while only the very very best are responsibly bred from, there is going to be more demand for the badly bred pup... whereas if more of the good are responsibly bred from, the demand for the badly bred pup will go down... maybe it's idealistic...  I'm glad I'm not a breeder!!!  

Going back to the OP.
I think you could probably give either strain of Cocker a good active home... as others have said, Workers don't just need the physical activity, but a lot of mental stimulation... If you are prepared for this, there's no reason why you shouldn't consider a Working Cocker.  However as others have said, Show Cockers can keep going for just as long....  

If I was getting another puppy at this minute, I would get a show cocker, mainly because I couldn't take the risk of getting a worker who had more stamina than Honey.  I would love a (pure) worker in the future, but would make sure I could devote sufficient time to training so that I could be confident of meeting their needs....