Biting lots and worried about 10 month old baby...

[mmeears]

Daisy has been at home with us since Thursday now and has obviously settled in completely as she has turned into a ball of mischief! We are constantly being bitten now and boy it hurts! My 6 year old daughter Anya was bitten on the heel this morning and we had lots of tears. My poor 10 month old baby boy Charlie is constantly being hounded (excuse the pun ) when he's on the floor and he's had his toes, ears and arms bitten. If i am sat on the sofa she constantly bites my trousers, ankles, toes etc and I have tried "ouch" "no" and distracting her with toys.

She does have a crate in the kitchen but I am reluctant to put her in there when she bites as I dont want her to associate the crate with punishment. If I was on my own I could turn my back and fold my arms but not sure what to do when she bites Charlie. Should I put a collar and lead on her and lead her out of the room? We have a baby gate across the kitchen door so I could take her in there and go back into the sitting room? Please please help as dont want my children to see her as a pest - have explained to Anya its normal puppy behaviour...

On a different note, re house training - early days but poos and wees in house still and wondered whether we should start using puppy pads? At moment I'm putting her outside and using "hurry up" command. We have had success in the garden but have still had accidents inside and thought maybe puppy pads may confine it to one area and therefore easier to clean with baby around? Or should I just stick to taking her outside?

[M4ndy]

Hi, my black girl is 18 months now but when I got her at 10 weeks my daughter was 4 and my son 4 months old. I'm afraid if I could do it again I would wait until the kids were older. My daughter is only just now beginning to love Jasmine as she has been just too boisterous up until now.
I think you will need to keep kids and pup separate for some time. Otherwise they just end up disliking each other. Its hard work but I think its the only way. I would keep a house line on the pup ( a long thin lead) and only have her in the room with the kids when you are 100% supervising. Any biting and just remove her to the kitchen or out of the room quietly and calmly using the line. Keep popping her in her crate for short periods when you're busy and try to give her as much attention as possible when the kids aren't around. Its a bit of a nightmare and I felt as though there just wasn't enough of me to go around but it does get better.
On the plus side my son of course doesn't remember the biting stage and he and Jasmine are now best friends and partners in crime. They share each others food and he helps her reach things that I have put out of her way  but its all good fun!
On the house training side it is early days yet. Confining the pup a bit more will help with this. I never bothered with puppy pads just kept persisting with frequent visits to the garden and they get it in the end. 

[Karma]

I personally wouldn't let Daisy anywhere near your 10 month old while he is on her floor.  Use a play pen - either for baby or for puppy, so that they can be in the same room but seperate.
The puppy biting will continue for a good while yet - the methods described on various threads here do work, but they are not an immediate solution it take days/weeks of consistent training to have the desired impact!  
Again, if you have a pen set up you could pop Daisy in there if she continues to bite after an ouch (we actually found "Ack" worked better) and distraction has failed.  

You can also use a houseline, so you can gradually introduce Daisy to your kids, but guide her away the second she gets bitey...

As far as housetraining goes - take her out after every meal, sleep, playtime and every half hour regardless.. she will soon get the hang of it.    Praise like a mad thing whenever she does it right.  If you used puppy pads, you would still need to train her to use these, so it wouldn't stop the accidents elsewhere...  

(Posted at the same time as M4ndy!!)

[mmeears]

Thank you both    

Yes I never leave them on their own - apart from the pooch issue Charlie would trash the sitting room so definitely cant be left unsupervised !  We bought a play pen for our little girl when she was a baby and we lent it to some friends but I think it may be time to ask for it back! I think we need a bigger house...

We thought about waiting til the children were older but our gorgeous boxer Bobby died 2 years ago and Anya has practically begged us every day since for another dog. I have to say the house felt strangely empty without her as she was a wonderful companion so we eventually relented but I do sometimes wonder what I've let myself in for  I know we'll come through it though and she is an absolute delight otherwise! Looks very much like yours M4ndy!

Also think you're right about the puppy pads - just thought I'd check! My life seems to be centred around cleaning up poo at the moment...baby and dog!! Does the smell ever leave the house??!!! Am constantly walking around thinking I can smell it!!
I've been leaving her overnight in her crate and coming down in the morning. This morning she's had a poo although not yesterday. Should I put some paper in her crate with her or move her vet bed so that if she does go she has an area to go on thats not her bed? Many thanks - this site is my lifeline at the moment - hubby works away through the week so need all the support I can get

[JanineandTim]

Hi - just thought I would comment on this as your situation sounds similar to ours!

Mabel is 11 months now and our two kiddies are 7 and 13 months - Hermione was about 5 months when we got her!

The biting was really difficult for us too, although maybe slightly easier as Hermione wasn't moving around or anything. The biggest problem was actually with my son - Mabel would bit at his trousers and pjs and he'd often be in tears! We found it was a combination of a sharp "no" and ignoring her, combined with her growing up a bit that helped. She did grow out of it and we suddenly realised things had got alot better....

Re toilet training, we used a crate overnight from the start and when we went out, although she's now safe to be left (within our big kitchen!) when we go out we still use it overnight. I think it helped massively. Although all puppies are different, we didn't put any puppy pads or anything in the crate and she never had an accident in there. When we first got her my hubby would go to bed really late to let her out as late as poss and get up really early in the morning to do the same and she just seemed to get it but we've had very few probs since then.

They all get on fab now. I'd never leave Mabel unsupervised with Hermione, even for a sec, although she's gentle as anything with them! The biggest problem we have is Mabel picking up the baby's toys and runninh off with them  and Hermione wanting to chew the kongs etc.!!!!!

I know its tought at the mo (we had lots of days of me saying to my hubby - we've made a mistake!) but it will get easier..... Good luck 

[supergirl]

You really do have to set ground rules with puppies - any hint of a play bite or mouthing when Roly and Misha were pups meant all games stopping and me leaving them in their area (a small sectioned off part of the house), which meant whilst they could see me, they couldn't follow me nipping at heels etc.  You have to have a very clear reaction, a squeak so that they knew that they had hurt you and then walk away, and have a real make-believe sulk not looking at them, so that they learn that the fun stops if they don't behave - and you have to be consistant and do the same for every little mouth (even if it hasn't hurt you), and everyone in the family must do it.

Obviously a 10 month old baby can't do this and it makes sense that the baby and other small children are kept separate from the puppy until the dog has learned some boundaries.

As far as housetraining - are you able to create a sectioned off area near a door to the garden.  Does depend on the layout of your house, but for Roly and Misha I sectioned off the breakfast area at the end of the kitchen which led straight out into the garden (sectioned off area was about 3m x 3m).  Completely lined it with several layers of newspaper so that if there were any accidents you can easily lift and dispose of it.  Misha took a while to house train, and even if you took her outside and she went to the toilet, you could guarantee that as soon as you stepped indoors again she would pee.  The sectioned off area was enough space for the puppy to run around in and also have her bed/crate, but it also confined the accidents to a specific area, with no chance of you or puppy accidently standing in anything and transfering it around the house.  Gradually reduce the amount of paper as time goes on until you only have paper at the door.  May take a bit longer but just gives you a bit of control - does get better, honest

[LisaA]

Hi,

We are due to get our first puppy beginning of July, Parker will be joining a household with two young children (Chloe nearly 5 & Abi 17 months) having read this post I am alittle concerned about how our girls are going to be with the biting. We took Chloe to meet Parker a week ago and he was niping her then which she laughed at but wondered how she'll feel if he's hanging on her trousers all the time! She knows to wear slippers round the house, my youngest however is a different story. Abi is robust as Chloe pulls her around all the time, I know that people will make comments about how we should have waited till the children are alittle older & yes we should have but I don't work and we have loads of love to give & the girls will love him especially Chloe as she wants to play chase and fetch and throwing the ball etc.

Any advice about, how to introduce the puppy to the children and to make my life easier would be great! Or any books anyone could recommend.

Lisa

[Holly2009]

Our sons were 4yrs & 9 months when we got Holly, we kept them completely apart up untill Holly was about 10 months old, the 4 year old could play for a few minutes then new when it was time to back off when Holly got to excited and would leave the room.
I still dont let her near my now 15month old, Holly will be 1 this month, she is still quite mouthy but gentle enough for my eldest to purposely stick his hands in her mouth  they are best friends, love playing in the garden & round the house....and when all is quite this is what I find........
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=71828.msg1062165#msg1062165

[emily230200]

Hiya

As you know I cant offer advice, only support.  Hang on in there it is such early days. take all the advice you can from others who have experience...thinking of you guys and daisy.  How about a sectioned off area for Daisy if you are able to in your home?  or a play penforyour ten month old
...lol .....ihave twins and would have lost the plot without their playpen!!!

Take care

em
xxx

[Hurtwood Dogs]

I've done puppies and young children and torn my hair out over it. I ended up talking to a trainer about it as I really couldn't see how to make it work and she gave me the best advice ever.......

Children can't behave how we need them to in order to properly and consistently train puppies. Therefore mixing puppies and young children will always have a detrimental effect on any training the adults are doing. Children can't not react to pain and puppies will always react to a squeaking child more than an adult so keep them separate until the pup has grown up and learnt bite inhibition on adults who can be consistent with the pup and deal with the pain .

If I was in your shoes, I'd keep Daisy mostly in the kitchen (which will also help with controlling the toilet training around your baby) and let her out for short play sessions with your older child only at this point, but with her wearing a long line and the second she starts nipping, quietly remove her back to the kitchen - she will learn that nice play gives her more time but it takes a while. If Daisy is anything like my second pup Dave, you will have to do this until she is about 9-11 months or possibly longer. It seems hard at the time and you worry about the pup not bonding with the kids but based on my experience it's worked brilliantly for the following reasons:

1. Reduced the stress and excitement levels in the house
2. Contained toilet training
3. Pup couldn't eat kids toys risking big vets bills and upset kids
4. Pup couldn't attack kids and didn't get fuelled up about biting the kids because they scream and it's fun for pup - which is another reason pups target children.
5. Kids and pup learnt a calm healthy respect for each other gradually over time with short supervised play sessions that gradually increase as behaviour improves
6. Training the pup is restricted to adults so pup doesn't get confused

I could go on and on.... for me it's the BEST way to make sure the pup and kids grow a great relationship and never end up with issues with each other - a hurt child can easily react and hurt the pup which can result in the pup fearing or becoming properly aggressive towards the kids as the pup gets older and a kid can become fearful of the pup meaning they give out the wrong signals to the dog and never learn to relax with each other.

For night time toilet training, if you're not going to go down in the night, I'd leave Daisy's crate open (but still leave her confined in the kitchen) and leave some paper down away from the crate so she doesn't have to mess in her space, then quietly clear it up in the morning and continue your usual day time toilet training. If she's still messing in the night when she's about 8-9 months then you could consider closing the crate then to encourage her to hold it through the night as she'll be big enough then.

My second pup (Dave) wasn't really allowed to mingle freely with the family until he was nearly a year old as I have quite a hyper son and it was just a disaster letting them wind each other up   The pup would get freedom in the house in the evenings though when my son had gone to bed and have a good play with us, so it wasn't all bad for him. He was an extremely aggressive puppy but has grown into a really sweet family dog and he's brilliant with all children now. He's just turned 3 and I have a 1 yr old baby now also who I totally trust him with and last weekend Dave and my son who's now 7 yrs were placed 4th out of 25 in a junior dog handling competition and they absolutely adore each other

I really believe had I not kept him mostly separate to the kids in the first year, he could have turned out very differently as he really couldn't handle any sort of confrontation as a pup and would just attack - I couldn't even say 'no' to him without him freaking out and going for me But he's learnt that no one in the family, including the kids will hurt him now and in return he's very gentle with all of us and has learnt to trust

Hang in there!!!!!

[M4ndy]

Just wanted to add that my 5 year old just wanted to cuddle the puppy and obviously for 99% of the time this was the last thing the puppy wanted or needed so separation was the only way. However, if I timed it just right I could settle a sleepy puppy down for a cuddle on DD's lap and everyone was happy 
It is hard work in those early months but it does get better and you can have children and puppies you just have to be prepared. My sons first word was 'gud grl'.

[mmeears]

Thank you so much everyone for all your advice. I have decided that you are right and are keeping the pup and baby separate for most of the time (although I do sometimes worry that Daisy spends a lot of time on her own in the kitchen or her crate...) As you say its impossible to expect the kids to "train" Daisy and I dont want any of us to be inconsistent with her as its not fair to her when she then gets things wrong. We had 5 minutes of play this morning when I got back from dropping my 6yr old Anya at school and Charlie played with her toys and she played with his quite happily. She then went over to him and tried to play bite him and I immediately said "ouch" and put her in the hall. When she had stopped whining I then put her in the kitchen with the safety gate closed so she couldn't get out but she could hear us nearby. Charlie is now having a nap and Daisy is asleep in her crate...peace

We've got a trainer coming round on Saturday for an hour and half consultation just to point us in the right direction before we can start puppy training classes so will be interesting to see if she has any other useful advice. I think my hubby is looking forward to this as he finds it all a bit stressful and cant understand why i'm as laid back about it as I am but I think if I got upset by it I'd completely lose the plot !!

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Don't forget that puppies do actually need a lot of sleep too and too much activity can actually make them more hyper and worse behaved - working dogs and pups also spend a lot of time in a 'kennel' with the day broken into short periods of mentally stimulating activity and can thrive in that environment, so it's not a bad is it may seem at first It's only the first year give or take and you'll have the rest of her life to relax more together and for her to form a good bond with the kids

Bringing a pup home with young kids is usually very hard and it's why breeders generally don't like selling pups to families with young children but you can make it work without it being absolute hell AND end up with a well balanced dog if you put sensible measures in place like the ones I've described.