New Baby and Dora

[Lis]

Hello there - it has been a while since my last post which is a good sign as it means i have not been in crisis.  We have moved to a larger space and it seems to agree with Dora as she does not seem to be as cornered.  She will still bark and try and rush new comers but providing they ignore her she will settle.   We were even able to have 5 friends over for a bbq and leave Dora to roam a few weeks back as my husband distracted her by playing ball on their arrival.

However, there is a big but.  I gave birth to our first child on Saturday and since we have been back I am worried that Dors is not able to adjust to the situation.  She has been slinking around very morosely and will not look at the baby.  If he makes a noise she will sometimes bark or growl.  I can see that I have brought this about by not preparing her as well as I should have.  Up until my waters broke I was still taking her up to bed with me of an evening (my husband works late and would bring her down when he got home).  Suddenly the bedroom is a no go area and last night she followed me up my husband followed with the baby and she stood at the top of the stairs and barked at him.  She is still being walked (albeit by my husband and not me) but she is not getting the round the clock attention she previously got from me. 

My husband is keen for us to try and integrate the two of them but despite my love for dors, every fibre is telling me to keep her at bay (which is not helping I am sure!) I am trying to be relaxed around her but as soon as she reacts to him I panic.  I think she wanted to go over and sniff him in his chair this morning but I just don't want her to get close.

Dora has a chequered past and has bitten people previously including a child (aged 12).  I feel i am being irresponsible having her around but she has been such a good friend to me I don't want to give up on her.  I am also very hormonal so probably not thinking straight.  I would really appreciate your thoughts on whether I should persevere and keep them seperate and under constant surveillance (but then what happens when the baby is crawling?) or whether I should look at other options.

Thanks

Lisa

[Karma]

As a Mum to a nearly 4yr old Cocker and nearly 9 month old human, I really think you need some proper professional guidance here.

This isn't as simple as preparing a dog for accepting a new baby (and you are right to have realised now that changes to Dora's routines should really have been made before the new arrival - it's not the end of the world, but it will make things that little more difficult) - Dora is a dog with issues, and you don't trust her - you need a professional to come in and observe her body language around the baby, to see if her grumbles are just adapting to the new situation or if she is stressed and anxious by the new arrival.
You are right, the baby will get scarier to Dora as he gets older - babies make strange movements which are unpredictable for dogs, and this can be difficult for them to cope with.
 
Honey and Isobel have been dong very well together - Honey is uncertain at times, and we've yet to face the crawling issue, but she has adapted well, but Honey has been encouraged to spend calm time up close with Isobel (and rewarded for doing so), and now that Isobel is reaching out she is encouraged to be "gentle" with Honey... they aren't in close contact unless we are right there with them, and once Isobel is mobile they won't even be in vague proximity without one of us there.... we have playpens, room dividers and baby gates set up to manage this... By completely keeping them apart you risk your baby becoming magnetised to the dog, and he will make much more of a beeline to Dora once he is mobile if he hasn't become accustomed to being around her - likewise Dora will be much more scared of him if she hasn't been able to suss him out in a safer (for her) situation.

If you do get a professional in, please please do make sure they are someone who uses positive methods and doesn't subscribe to the outdated dominance theories - these could cause problems for some dogs, but could easily be disasterous for Dora in her current situation - you need someone who can read her signals, and advise you on how to make her life less stressful... you need to be working with her rather than against her.

I must admit Honey was never banned from the bedroom - she doesn't spend a lot of time there, but for the first few days she liked to lie at the bottom of the bed while I rested in bed.... but she is very good at settling at the bottom of the bed, so I knew she wasn't going to come and trample over me when I was holding Isobel....
 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Agree with Karma, I've had two babies with resident dogs (different ones for each baby), but none of my dogs had the history Dora does. What I would say is that although I totally trusted my dogs - I didn't want them near either of my newborns either. However, I was careful to distance myself before having the babies. I went by my instincts with them and we had a few months where the dogs gradually got used to the baby in the house without too much close contact - but no hysteria from me if they went near I just quietly managed them and kept them away. As the babies got bigger and stronger I gradually let them all get a lot closer and I've not had a problem.

If I was you though, I would get a behaviourist in now to asses Dora properly and advise you - it's not worth the risk to baby or Dora if you're unsure and uncomfortable with managing her right now 

Congratulations by the way

[bajoleth]

Agree with both of the above. I would say not to feel pressured to introduce the 2 , my belief is newborns and dogs are a no no for lots of reasons, main one is hygiene dogs carry germs, they lick their bums, they eat things they shouldn't. My Evie is now 6mths and has only just been properly introduced to the 2 dogs, they are not allowed in the room where she sleeps or in the lounge anymore, that may sound harsh but our kitchen is a very large family room and the family spend most of their time in there with the dogs. They used to bark when she cried but they soon got over the new noise and stopped. They were aware of her presence as they have seen her etc but they have never really shown any interest in her, she is now allowed to touch them and I allow them to sniff her and they seem to like each other. They will never be alone together in a room together without adult supervision same a my other children. I would def seek advise esp with her history and your baby is your no 1 priority. Keep them completely seperated for now, invest in babygates if you havent already, this allows for seperation with the dog still being able to see the rest of the family.
Its very early days for you as Mum but trust your instincts on this one, you don't need to exclude Dora from your life just seperate her and the baby and I am sure she will settle, make sure you still feed her and spend some time with her even if you are not up to the walks right now, and get hubby to read these replys, don't rush them into meeting I see no reason for it
Congratulations BTW

[bluegirl]

I had a 18mth old cocker when I had my first child but it seems like I did things different to others. I actively introduced my two as soon as I brought my newborn home from the hospital. I let her sniff at him, but drew the line at cocker kisses (which actually never happened because she was frightened of him). I tried to do as much as possible together with the two of them so she was around at baby meal times, nappy changes, the whole lot, she'd even nap next to him on our bed as long as I was in the room. I knew I needed to keep my child safe and for that reason I would only ever have Bonnie near him if I was supervising her but she was a gentle dog who had never shown any aggression. That said she was not a fan of any of my children as babies and only took an interest in them as they got older (maybe because they were permanently attached to a goodie, which she thought they may like to share with her).
I would say go with your instincts and if you have reservations you need to play it cautiously but be careful that you don't make baby so interesting to Dora because she never gets to see him that she may wish to do a little investigating of her own.

[Karma]

bluegirl - I did the same as you.    I figured for us it was going to be less stressful all round to having Honey involved and watching (and so getting used to Isobel before Isobel could start making a move to her).  As you found with Bonnie, Honey has shown no interest in kisses until very recently... 

[Mrs B]

 Hi There,
I have found this post very interesting as I am currently 28 weeks pregnant with my first child with a 19 month old cocker who is as soft as a brush with not an agressive bone in her body!!!  Hubby and I have both promised ourselves that Cinders will NOT get left out once baby arrives, but I know that the first few weeks/months are going to be difficult adjusting for all of us.  A friend of mine who already has a child and 2 cockers has advised that once we bring baby baby home to strip him (yes we know the sex already!!!) naked and lie him on the floor for Cinders to sniff and lick for about 10 mins.  Then obviously bath baby so he is nice and clean again!!  She did this when she brought her baby home so that her two could get used to this new arrival and after doing this a few times they soon got used to him being arrived and even became quite protective of him (not in a nasty way!!).

She also advised to try and not leave Cinders out of anything (a bit like having a young child) and to make time for her when baby is asleep.  The only problem I can see is that Cinders gets very excited when we first come home at night or first go to her in a morning and can be a bit hyper for about 5 mins.  I just wondered if anyone had any advice on how to calm her down quickly??  Also I am worried about baby's toys when they are left lying around as I think she will think they are for her and cocker thieve them back to her bed!! I have bought a couple of baby toys already and she got mega excited thinking they were for her when hubby and I were looking at them!!!

Sorry to hijack this thread!!!

Mrs B and Cinders xxxx

[Karma]

Mrs B - Honey is terrible at stealing baby toys - we just ask her to "retrieve" them (so she gives them to us for a treat) - she's really not been as bad as we thought she would be, and seems to be learning which are her toys and which are Isobel's!!!!
We've also found that Honey has coped fine with a quick hello, then a follow up once I've got car-seat and bags back into the house... she's stood wagging her bum at us and waited until we are able to greet her... 

[bajoleth]

I am not really sure stripping a newborn and lying it on the floor for a dog to lick is such a good idea to be honest and I really think you will come to that conclusion when you have your bundle of joy in your arms, stripping it off for a dog to lick will probobly fill you with horror it does me
I do appreciate that you are trying not to exclude your dog as Cinders has been your 'baby' up until now. But I truly believe that you don't need to go to all that to introduce the pair of them. Bring in the changes now, i.e if you do all the feeding walking now etc get your OH to start doing it, start to have time without the dog being with you, its a fact that you won't have the time with her as you do now, that doesn't make you a bad owner, its just being a parent will be your no 1 priority there is nothing wrong with that, you will still love your dog  
I have 5 children all brought up with a dog in the house, none of them have spent time with the dogs until they are 6mths old then its little by little, Evie my youngest has just been introduced to the dogs, she is nearly 7 mths old and her immune system is stronger so she is allowed to touch them when they are licking her , they don't want to jump on her , they just show her affection as they do our other children.

[jessandme]

I think it is just personal choice really, how you deal with your babies and your dogs.   I am sure there cannot be any hard and fast rules, it is just what suits each person and what they - and their dogs - are comfortable with.

I did not have dogs myself when my children were small, but I was brought up the eldest of five children in a house where there were always dogs around.  Our dogs were never separated from the babies - which I do remember arriving! - and we never had any problems.  Our dogs were always completely accepting of a new baby, it seemed to me that they took their cue from my mum in this, as they did with everything else.   There was a bit of interested sniffing and investigation, and then the baby was just treated the same as the other children.

The idea of putting the naked baby on the floor for the dog to investigate and sniff, that strikes me as really good.  I am sure it is just the sort of thing that my mum would have approved of.  With regard to germs, to be honest this probably wouldn't have crossed my mind as being a problem, babies get lots of immunities from their mother's milk after all. 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Personally, the naked newborn baby being licked by a dog thing is, I think, absolutely nuts.

Newborns have very little immune systems but they do develop them fast... There is absolutely no need to put your newborn at risk (from eye infections etc and an awful lot worse) to get your dog used to them. I totally agree with Jo. My kids have brilliant relationships with the dogs but I didn't need to put them at risk as soon as they were born to do this . Dogs don't need to be introduced and they don't get jealous if you manage them properly..... cool off your relationship a little before the baby comes home (this isn't mean, it's kind as you won't have the same amount of time for your dog as you did before) and you can desensitise them to the baby by carrying on as normal and them gently getting used to the idea of their new friend in the house. There doesn't need to be any grand introduction ceremony and not only is it highly unnecessary, I actually think it's irresponsible to do what's been suggested. I love my dogs passionately but they aren't human and that needs to be kept in perspective

Sorry for sounding a bit irritated... but you just need to be sensible, it's not difficult.

ETA: My dogs weren't kept totally seperate from my newborns but they weren't involved in absolutely everything I did with them either and when I needed some space they were happy to go elsewhere..

[bajoleth]

Thanks Hannah thought I was the only one who thought that putting a newborn naked on the floor to be licked by dogs was absurd , My dogs too are not totally excluded from the baby but they are not 'involved' in her day to day activities IYSWIM. Like Hannah says its common sense really,

The idea of putting the naked baby on the floor for the dog to investigate and sniff, that strikes me as really good.  I am sure it is just the sort of thing that my mum would have approved of.  With regard to germs, to be honest this probably wouldn't have crossed my mind as being a problem, babies get lots of immunities from their mother's milk after all.  

Yes babies do get some immunities from Mum, but I can't think any Health Professional would condone putting a child at risk of Toxocariasis etc
Not wanting to scaremonger but take a look here for common sense reasons why its not a good idea for you dog to be licking a baby
http://www.londondogforum.co.uk/diseases-that-can-be-transmitted-from-dog-to-man-c615.html
You will find that the most vulnerable are the elderly and the VERY YOUNG

[sallyb]

While it's true that babies get immunity from their mother, this relies on the mother having the immunity to pass on.
It also won't work for things like intestinal parasites (worms)
The baby's 'inherited' immunity fades quite quickly and they are vulnerable to infections from any source.

I am not obsessional about cleanliness and the Dettox adverts make me cross  every time they're on with the scaremongering.

I do agree with Hannah and the others that allowing any dog to lick a newborn is unwise.
(The same applies to cats, rats, budgies, hamsters as well as cockers)

[jessandme]

The inherited immunity lasts as long as breast feeding - I suppose I have been making assumptions there, and I need to apologise.  It is just something that I take for granted - I fed all of mine well past their first birthday - but if I stop and think instead of just assuming, I do know it is not everyone's choice.   I am sorry, I should not make assumptions.

My babies were all summer babies, hot weather.  And all three had jaundice, so to help it clear I kept them out of doors in the sunshine - and naked - as much as possible, for the first couple of weeks. The visiting midwife and health visitor strongly approved.   

So putting the baby down for the dog to have a good sniff and investigate would have been no big deal.  All my dogs are wormed etc, so I don't know how a baby would catch anything like that from them.

[Karma]

I think there is a big difference between putting a newborn down naked and encouraging a dog a lick it all over and putting a young baby down and allowing the dog to sniff and investigate and learn that it is safe.


We didn't actually put Isobel down, but Honey was allowed (in her own time) to come up and sniff - she would have been allowed to lick her (though not her face) had she wanted to, but despite her being a very "licky" dog  she didn't attempt to.

I think there is a sensible middle ground between keeping a baby and dog completely separate (as I carry Isobel most of the time, and she continues to enjoy the occassional nap on me, this would be very difficult to acheive for us - Honey would have had no time with me at all    - and the huge amount of time I sat with a newborn feeding was the ideal opportunity to also entertain the dog and let her know she was still important) and allowing the dog to smother the baby in "love" and kisses...

I don't see the risks on the link bajoleth posted are any more than something to be aware of - the list covers a bunch of stuff that you already protect against (by worming and vaccination), a bunch of stuff that causes obvious symptoms in your dog (and I wouldn't let an ill dog be in contact with a baby) and a disease that is transmitted by cats, but included on the list because many dog owners have cats...