what is the best colour for a good temperment?

[Top Barks]

I only reported the findings of my survey which are not my opinion, just results of questionnaires obtained from cocker owners.
All i said is I found a significant  statistical association between two variables in certain situations. I do not for one minute suggest that solids have a worse temperament than parti's that is just crazy.
This is a subject close to my heart as well, remember I hold the breed with great affection, and have one who was due to be PTS not because he is solid black, but because of the people who owned him prior to him being rescued. I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm sure any study will cause controversy amongst different groups of people and people can interpret the results which ever way they want.
That's all they are, results obtained from statistical analysis from data provided from cocker owners, I've not made them up! But they prove diddly squat!

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

I only reported the findings of my survey which are not my opinion, just results of questionnaires obtained from cocker owners.
All i said is I found a significant  statistical association between two variables in certain situations. I do not for one minute suggest that solids have a worse temperament than parti's that is just crazy.
This is a subject close to my heart as well, remember I hold the breed with great affection, and have one who was due to be PTS not because he is solid black, but because of the people who owned him prior to him being rescued. I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm sure any study will cause controversy amongst different groups of people and people can interpret the results which ever way they want.
That's all they are, results obtained from statistical analysis from data provided from cocker owners, I've not made them up! But they prove diddly squat!

......and a fine lad he is too 

[Ben's mum]

I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.

I have to say I find this really interesting and as you suggest there are a lot of variables that can cause aggression, but I think the rage 'label' used to act a little like a self fullfilling prophecy.  When Ben (now 9), was mouthy and had a temper as a pup, the trainer at the class I went to 'diagnosed' rage because he is black and she suggested a range of ways based on Jan Fennels ideas to prove I was boss and stop the behaviours  I would now bet my life that this caused him fear and heightend the aggression of my normal naughty cocker pup, much to my shame and upset.  This was before I knew about COL and what to expect with a cocker pup - I was so stupid and just believed what I was told.  Harry came to me with a lot of aggression issues and it could have all ended very nastily, but because I knew different and positive ways to work with him and had advice from people that understand and know the breed (thanks Mark  ) Harry actually now has far fewer issues than Ben and is so easy with people and dogs.  So perhaps its people's perceptions of the colour/rage issue that causes some of the problems - if that makes sense

[lola B]

that is an amazing idea it really gets you thinking i think that is probably the most sensible thing anyone has said to do with rage as long as i have been researching  it

[Clare B]

I totally agree on the self fulfilling prophesy

[Clare B]

I should have put analogy at the end of that , but I absolutely agree that it can be made to happen through lack if understanding and misinformed guidance .

[LurcherGirl]

I will continue to base my opinion on the Cockers I actually know and noone will ever convince me that Solids are more aggressive than Partis ...

Well, if I took that stance and based my opinion just on the cockers that I actually have, then I would have to say that all solids have aggression issues!

There is no point in saying that you can't be convinced of anything else but your own opinion... Mark has done some research and based on the research he did, he came to a result - whether we like that outcome or not! There is obviously a situation right now WITH THE DOGS THAT TOOK PART IN THE SURVEY that more solid coloured cockers have aggression issues in certain situations than parti coloured ones... you can't argue about that and there is no point in saying it isn't true... For that particular study and those particular dogs, it is true! And as there was quite a large number that took part from lots of areas in the UK, there might be the possibility that there is indeed a breed issue (not saying there IS, just saying there MIGHT BE).

So surely, the best approach to this issue wouldn't be to burry your head in the sand and say it doesn't exist and it's all lies, but to find out why Mark's study came to this conclusion and to do some more research and get breeders and owners (of all colours) on board to participate in that and find out whether Mark's study was just a fluke or whether there is actually an issue that needs addressing. That will be much more beneficial for the cocker as a breed than either bashing Mark for "getting it all wrong" or bashing everyone else for having the wrong opinion...  

In addition, it is also important to remember that genes often don't work as isolated units in the body. In conjunction with other genes, the same gene can have different effects in different situations working with different gene combinations! So just because colour may not be an issue in one breed doesn't mean that in another breed it can be an issue due to other genes involved in certain processes. It is also a well known fact that when foxes were bred for tameness, that their colour changed (they became parti coloured)!!! This isn't to support the fact that solid coloured cockers may or may not be more aggressive, but simply to support the argument that coat colour and temperament can play together and influence each other!

Now, I have two cockers (one American, one English) and both have aggression issues. Jesse (my American, solid sable) has them due to a thyroid condition which was diagnosed when he was 18 months old... although he improved dramatically with medication, some damage to his temperament had already been done, so he isn't 100% perfect with larger dogs and puppies. (Two of his sisters, one solid, one parti, had/have the same aggression issues). Skye (my English, solid red) lost her first home at 4 months old due to her aggression issues... and my, did she have issues! They are 90% resolved and I don't know the cause. I was going to have her thyroid tested, but she is so good now, I am not sure yet whether it will be necessary. I don't know her breeding background, so don't know what her parents were like.

I would never advise someone to buy a puppy based on colour anyway regardless of the "reputation" of a colour as it were! Puppies should be aquired on the basis of temperament and health, colour should be very low on the list of priorities... So no, I wouldn't advise for or against solid cockers - whatever colour someone choses, they should chose a good breeder and then chose the puppy most suitable for their circumstances. Simples. Whether that is solid or parti coloured.  

Vera

PS. Are there any other studies on coat colour and temperament connections in cockers or any other breed?

PPS. In American cockers, we tend to say that solid colours are more laid back in general whereas parti colours are more crazy and energetic... plenty of exceptions of course, but a trend that both breeders and owners seem to notice...

[Jane S]

In addition, it is also important to remember that genes often don't work as isolated units in the body. In conjunction with other genes, the same gene can have different effects in different situations working with different gene combinations! So just because colour may not be an issue in one breed doesn't mean that in another breed it can be an issue due to other genes involved in certain processes. It is also a well known fact that when foxes were bred for tameness, that their colour changed (they became parti coloured)!!! This isn't to support the fact that solid coloured cockers may or may not be more aggressive, but simply to support the argument that coat colour and temperament can play together and influence each other!

Of course but it's also important that assumptions are not made that any apparent differences in temperament are automatically assumed to be linked to coat colour genes as often happens when talking about solid coloured Cockers (both in the past and now). I'm still convinced that the apparent link to increased aggression in some (a relatively small number) of solid Cockers is down to the breeding practices of the past (decades ago) when anecdotal evidence suggests that sometimes dogs with poor temperament were bred from because of their show successes or because they were a particular popular colour at the time. Good temperament has to be bred for like any other trait and sadly not all breeders make this a priority and never will do (I'm not talking about show breeders here but breeders generally)

[LurcherGirl]

I completely agree, Jane. And we also need to remember that other medical conditions too can cause aggression issues, which may be liked to certain lines which happen to be certain colours! I can give an example in sable American cockers. Sables in the UK have the reputation of carrying temperament issues, they are numerically very small and therefore are practically all from the same line. Now my sable American has aggression issues which is down to autoimmune thyroiditis which is an inherited condition. It would now be very interesting to test other dogs of the same line/colour for thyroid as the aggression issues that do seem present in a larger than average percentage of sables in Americans could very well be down to hypothyroidism and not just "bad temperament" as such... and I am wondering whether the same would be true for certain lines (which happen to be certain colours perhaps) in English cockers which could well be why the results for English workers and English show types differs, in fact, whether the same would be true for most aggression cases in any breed. 

But of course, a study like Mark's wouldn't show the cause of the aggression issues, which as has been pointed out by many including Mark, could be down to various reasons not just the coat colour genes as such... but until that is tested and researched and something done about the underlying cause (be it genetic, be it medical...), the result is the same regardless of the cause. 

[Helen]

What is considered a good sample out of a population though?    If around 20,000 pups are registered each year then there are at least 200,000 cockers in the UK (not counting those who have sadly died before 10, those aged over 10 or the tens of  thousands of non-kc registered litters born...)

I'm not denying that Mark's research is informative and correct for the sample,  I just wonder with the sample he has taken if it is broad enough.

[Jane S]

But of course, a study like Mark's wouldn't show the cause of the aggression issues, which as has been pointed out by many including Mark, could be down to various reasons not just the coat colour genes as such... but until that is tested and researched and something done about the underlying cause (be it genetic, be it medical...), the result is the same regardless of the cause. 

Yes that's the problem - there is no one underlying cause that applies across the board - some cases may have medical causes eg underactive thyroid (as in your Jesse) or pain from undiagnosed conditions (hip dysplasia, brain tumours etc), others will be down to environmental factors (upbringing and training), others due to poor breeding practices, the list goes on and on. I do take your point that perhaps there may be a common genetic factor (thyroid related) in some solid show lines but underactive thyroids are relatively common in particolour show lines too which suggests that this is not the answer but who knows? Impossible to say without in depth scientific research on large numbers of dogs.

Re the apparent different results in working lines, it's only relatively recently that there has been such an explosion in the working Cocker population (particularly in pet homes) and I wonder if the same study was carried out in say twenty or thirty years time, whether there would be such apparent differences between show/working dogs, particularly if the breeding of working strain dogs for the pet market by breeders motivated by money (ie not genuine breeders who work their dogs) continues and has the same detrimental effect as the commercial breeding of show type dogs.

It's a subject which will run and run with no easy answers sadly...

[Top Barks]

Jane, you must have read my conclusion 
The results are only representitive of the sampled population and I am not for one moment inferring these results are relevant at the level of the individual dog. Who knows what a larger sample would have revealed.

[KellyT]

Mark,

at any point would your study / dissertation becoming 'available' to read publicly... I for one would be very interested to read it.

My mum's golden cocker was a complete darling... perfectly behaved, easy to train and a complete softie ... unless you tried to take food away from her ... but hey, it was her food / treat, so I'm not surprised 
My girls, you can take food away no problem, but they have other possessiveness issues, including me!   I don't put this down to their colours though... it's their individuality and how we've brought them up (spoilt little princesses!).

[Top Barks]

i doubt it will be published but when it has been marked I may make it available to interested individuals as a PDF.
I do warn you it is hardly a bed time read and has about thirty five pages of tables and graphs

[NotanotherAlfie!]

Alfie has his moments, but I have never considered it to be anything to do with his colour.  He started to have a problem when given a bone for example and went mad at me when I went near him.  I perservered and repeatedly took it from him, even pretended to eat it  then give it back to him then take it off him.  He has no problem with food now I can literally take food out of his bowl and he just looks at me now with an expression that says "er excuse me I think you will find that's mine"  From a puppy I always gave him his food then bent down and took his bowl away then gave it back to him.  Behaviour is down to breeding and rearing not colour.