CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Gordo on July 12, 2009, 08:40:06 PM
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We are new to the forum.
Lily is a six month old Blue Roan.
Lily has recently shown signs of serious aggression. We saw a behaviourist on Thursday who said it was related to her inability to deal with her frustration. Today, however, her behaviour has escalated. She went for my other half when he tried to take her lead off after her walk (she has done this before) so we ignored the bad behaviour. For the rest of the afternoon/evening she has shown serious aggression if we even stroke her (growling, snarling, barking and trying to bite). She has also taken to guarding her toys, her pad and the sofa if she can get on it.
We have contacted the behaviourist, but, he can't understand the sudden escalation in aggression.
We are at the end of our tethers. Has anyone else had similar issues or can you offer any advice to help us get through the night?
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Cant give advice for the problem your having sorry but with regards for what to do tonight i would stay away from her. Dont look at her, approach her or touch her. If she comes to you fine but if not keep away. Does she use a crate?
If she does I would pop her in her crate and remove everything you dont want her to have and leave some toys for her. I wouldnt go near her while she had anything she could guard.
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Hi - I'm not as experienced as many others on here, but do you think she may be experiencing some kind of pain, would you be able to pop her to the vets tomorrow just to check?
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Has your dog being given a thorough check by your vet including a full thyroid panel?
Who was the behaviourist and what qualifications do they have?
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We already are staying away from her, and she does sleep in a crate. The worst part is she approaches us and sits happily at our feet for attention and if we stroke her she growls and lunges.
She is in the garden at the moment happily chewing a leaf and she still responds to our commands but then becomes aggressive after treating/praise. :(
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I'm no expert, but you say that your behaviourist said "it was related to her inability to deal with her frustration". I'm wondering what frustration a 6 month old puppy has to deal with?
Is she having enough stimulation/playtime/rest periods?
It's a long time since I had a puppy but I can't imagine a 6 month old puppy having frustration problems :-\
How long have you had her?
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Dont touch her then, even if shes sat at your feet. It does sound like she could be in pain
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She was checked out by the vet and we were refered to the behaviourist by them. The behaviourist is David Appleby MSc CCAB. He has been recommended by a number of people and several vets/trainers.
She doesn't appear to be in pain. We could take her to the vet if we can get her into her car harness without being bitten.
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Does she have a favourite game such as throw the squeaky toy with which you can distract her? Also, I wonder about pain. Is her digestion ok. I am with the others, I can't think what the frustration would be. Has she got a dog flap? I found this really useful for Rufus because he could have his mad cocker moments both inside and out.
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She doesn't seem to be in pain - I can usually read her moods etc, but over the weekend I'm even doubting my ability to do this. Her digestion is fine and the door is always open so she can go in and out of the house as she pleases.
We have been playing with her toys with her, and where she used to bring them back to play 'fetch', she's not even doing that now?
I assume her frustration is because she's not getting what she wants, ie attention from chewing shoes/shoe laces.
She's just come in out of the garden with a stone and just because she's settled down at our feet and hubby's foot dares to be near her head, she's growling! :huh:
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How long have you had her?
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We've had her 4 months, so we can't even put it down to settling into a new home! We got her at 7.5 weeks.
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I'm so sorry you are going through this :'(
Something is terribly wrong for a puppy her age to be acting this way, very over the top, even for adolescence. I would think more than likely it is physical, especially if it has been a new development and is quickly escalating. It may be some sort of hormonal or thyroid problem, as Top Barks said.
A vet exam for behaviour would include complete bloodwork including full thyroid panel (not just T3/T4)
Did the behaviourist offer anything besides a lack of understanding why? ::) Such as seeing you ASAP as you seem to need some intervention now, and any cases of aggression need to be seen by a qualified professional
Hope you can get to the bottom of this soon
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Hi from another silly Lily owner. Try to stay calm and as has been said dont touch her. She sounds very afraid and stressed and the more you try and coax her or reassure her the worse it will get. My advice would be to totally ignore her in every sense for the rest of the evening and night. No looking, no touching, no speaking to her. Pretend she is not there. I am not a behaviorist but I've fostered over a dozen spaniels with issues including ones like your Lily (and my Lily) and although what she is doing makes no sense to you it will make perfect sense to her. She is in full on self defence mode and as she is stressed its the old 'fight or flight' instinct so if she cant move away or be left alone she will lash out.
We obviously dont know her history so we cant say what you should do next but you definitely need to contact your vet and/or behaviourist asap.
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my dog has her moments when she gets "one on her" and gets snappy..usually if she feels she has not had enough exercise...or has a particular treasure she doe s nt want to relinquish...we certainly avoid her and do not confront her or go too close..you are doing right staying calm and not confronting her...the heat could have upset her possibly...? continuing to be kind and not getting cross or dominant is definitely the best bet as agression in return only aggravates the dog s aggressive behaviour...Ruby usually calms down in her crate... I wonder if her hormones are kicking in and starting to bother her ..Ruby had miserable moments around that age where she started to drag around like an old lady which I believe was down to hormones...her snappy moments are pretty rare now but being calm and kind is always the best way forward...I hope you get some solution...we all get snappy at times and i m sure even the sweetest dog will get irritable at times...all the best !
with early teething biting problems and the odd episode of unpredictable "nuttiness" ..there have been moments when I ve thought what have I done..but with patience and perseverence we have an adorable dog who we understand and avoid when a little hormonal and grumpy..
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Thanks for all your advice - it really is appreciated.
Will talk to behaviourist again tomorrow and hopefully have an idea of what to do next.
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I agree with what Joanne said, just give her her space this evening, any contact is likely to escalate things.
You said that things escalated after your walk. Have you had Lily checked for hip dysplasia? If, as she is growing, she is developing this she will be in tremendous pain during and after a walk. I don't know if she has been x-rayed (and I wouldn't ever suggest that a dog is x-rayed unnecessarily) but as she is growing, this could be a developing problem.
Please let us know how you get on. :blink:
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I'm just wondering if she could be starting her first season & is suffering from PMT?
My first bitch used to get quite hormonal when her seasons were due, although she was never regular, so I got her spayed.
Do you have any Rescue Remedy in the house? If you do, I suggest you put a few drops in her water bowl. Normally, I get dogs to lick it off my fingers, but since she's likely to take your fingers with it, I suggest you put it in her water.
I agree with the others that you should see your vet asap to try to get to the bottom of this.
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I'm just wondering if she could be starting her first season & is suffering from PMT?
My first bitch used to get quite hormonal when her seasons were due, although she was never regular, so I got her spayed.
Do you have any Rescue Remedy in the house? If you do, I suggest you put a few drops in her water bowl. Normally, I get dogs to lick it off my fingers, but since she's likely to take your fingers with it, I suggest you put it in her water.
I agree with the others that you should see your vet asap to try to get to the bottom of this.
I wondered that myself. Is she showing any signs?
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We did speek to the behaviourist again today - he phoned after I e-mailed him about her escalating agression, and he mentioned this, but also didn't think this would be the case due to her age and the fact that she is still very puppyish?!?
What are the signs of her 1st season?
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We did speek to the behaviourist again today - he phoned after I e-mailed him about her escalating agression, and he mentioned this, but also didn't think this would be the case due to her age and the fact that she is still very puppyish?!?
What are the signs of her 1st season?
Seasons can start at 6 months old for cockers. The signs are a swollen vulva, attention from males, licking off the ladybits with or without signs of blood as well as behavioural changes such as agitation, grumpiness, being clingy and other out of character behaviour. Probably more than this but seasons are not something I know to much about. I do know that they can affect some dogs in major ways a bit like some women with PMT.
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If she is in the pre-season stage, there are not really any reliable signs in a first timer, as you don't know the timing yet or what to expect. :-\ Behavioural changes are definitely one of the things, possibly increased urination (marking). I did also wonder about seasons too, if this is a pre-season mood swing you might consider early spaying as this is a bit beyond the usual grumpies some bitches go through :-\
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our chap started getting aggressive before we discovered his patella condition (7 months). nearly all his aggression is a result of pain either through his sore knee or his broken leg or trying to groom out tugs.
i would guess that such a quick change is the result of some type of pain or insecurity.
in saying that he can be a nasty little sod for the simplest of thing such as toys or socks.
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We did speek to the behaviourist again today - he phoned after I e-mailed him about her escalating agression, and he mentioned this, but also didn't think this would be the case due to her age and the fact that she is still very puppyish?!?
What are the signs of her 1st season?
Mine was very puppyish and was a shock when she had her first season at 7 months as she was tiny and still very much a puppy. Her mood did change but she'd never shown any aggressive behaviour. I can't help with the behaviour but just to let you know that seasons can start early and they do change during this time.
I hope you find some answers soon, she seems really young to be showing this aggression. :-\ What was she like before this started and how long has she been like this.
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I think it's difficult to speculate in situations like this, I would definitely get your girl to the vet and ask to be referred to a Cocker-savvy behaviourist asap. I would definitely ask for a behaviourist who has experience in dealing with spaniels as not all do and this can cause issues with jumping to conclusions which may not necessarily happen with another breed of dog. I hope you get some answers soon, it must be incredibly stressful for you and for her.
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She was checked out by the vet and we were refered to the behaviourist by them. The behaviourist is David Appleby MSc CCAB. He has been recommended by a number of people and several vets/trainers.
She doesn't appear to be in pain. We could take her to the vet if we can get her into her car harness without being bitten.
He knows his stuff alright
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I had another thought overnight - have you spoken to Lily's breeder about this? It's possible that they may be able to shed some light on the problem.
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She was checked out by the vet and we were refered to the behaviourist by them. The behaviourist is David Appleby MSc CCAB. He has been recommended by a number of people and several vets/trainers.
She doesn't appear to be in pain. We could take her to the vet if we can get her into her car harness without being bitten.
He knows his stuff alright
Sounds like you have a decent behaviourist ;) as suggested could be hormonal due to early season - would def get her to vets for full bloods as has been suggested
Really hope you get this sorted real soon :-*
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I would echo what others have said about getting the vet to double check everything... stuffster on here has recently gone into battle with 2 vets adamant that her dog's aggression had a physical cause... the vets were very dismissive and she had to fight to get various tests done... the tests didn't show much, but due to a minor problem the vet agreed to give him some painkillers to see if it helped, and by all accounts he is a changed dog...
Sometimes vets underestimate the impact some minor ailments can have on a dog, and sometimes they don't look at all the potential physical causes... (especially thyroid, it would appear).
Good luck - you obviously care deeply for Lilly and I hope you can help her through this! :luv:
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I would echo what others have said about getting the vet to double check everything... stuffster on here has recently gone into battle with 2 vets adamant that her dog's aggression had a physical cause... the vets were very dismissive and she had to fight to get various tests done... the tests didn't show much, but due to a minor problem the vet agreed to give him some painkillers to see if it helped, and by all accounts he is a changed dog...
Sometimes vets underestimate the impact some minor ailments can have on a dog, and sometimes they don't look at all the potential physical causes... (especially thyroid, it would appear).
Good luck - you obviously care deeply for Lilly and I hope you can help her through this! :luv:
completely agree with Karma, and the thoughts about Stufster's Alfie were going through my mind as I read this so good luck with the vet.
You will probably have to push for all the thyroid/blood tests and I would really consider having x-rays of legs/hips/spine done too.
Such a shame we don't understand 'dog' and they can't tell us what's going on :-\
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Belive me guys David Appleby is one of the leading liights in behaviour in this country so Lily is in good hands
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Belive me guys David Appleby is one of the leading liights in behaviour in this country so Lily is in good hands
That's fantastic - lets hope he backs Lily to get all the health tests as well :D
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Belive me guys David Appleby is one of the leading liights in behaviour in this country so Lily is in good hands
That's fantastic - lets hope he backs Lily to get all the health tests as well :D
It would be unethical of him not to.
He is APBC and has probably forgotten more than i know. :D
He is very well published and is often on my reference lists.
http://www.petbehaviourcentre.com
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My bitch gets very moody when coming into season, not as extreme as this but she tends to grumble at our other dog and just wants to be left alone, I am getting her spayed after this next season to prevent this.
I too wonder if its hormonal. I so hope you can get to the bottom of this and it sounds like you have one of the best beaviourists helping you.
Good luck and best wishes
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Gordo. I hope everything improves for you and your cocker. Please let us know how things progress because we are all keen to support you and learn. Did you manage to get her to the vets yet? Chin up. Rufus's mum.
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How are things today? We'd love to hear how things go and how David helps you tackle this problem. He's definitely in the top ten of behaviourists in the country!
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Just looking for an update, wondering how you got on with the vet/behaviourist :huh:
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I was dreading today so hubby took the day off work and I spent the day with my mum. I know this may sound selfish, but tbh, I am completely at the end of my tether and very upset -- didn't want this to rub off on Lily........
Anyway, hubby stayed with Lily, David phoned this morning and said he would call round today on his way home. He suggested she may be coming into season, or that the growling is an expectation of pain rather than being in pain. He also said that her behaviour is abnormal even for a dog with behaviour problems due to the level of escalation in such a short period of time.
When he came, he checked and there doesn't appear to be any signs of her coming into season. She allowed him to stroke her but then growled at hubby when he stroked her. She let hubby put lead and take lead off, but had a funny look in her eyes when he did this. David said we had to make her earn her food - ie, stroke her, if she doesn't growl give her some dinner. He also said she possibly hasn't had enough opportunities to learn good behaviour as we had to ignore her 'bad' behaviour, so wasn't getting any fuss, so becoming frustrated. As he was leaving her said that she is going to be a tough nut to crack. :'(
Since I got home, her behaviour has been very erratic -- she was very pleased to see me, nut growled after a few seconds of me skroking her, she started earning her food, but as soon as it was all gone she went for hubby and she's 'humped' his leg lots of times, but growls when she does this.
I've spoken to her breeder again tonight, have been in regular contact with her since all this began, and there's not much she can really say as she's never experienced this either.
So really, we're no further forwards. We've e-mailed David again tonight re her behaviour and 'humping', but hubby is now where I was last night, and we just both feel that we're completely out of our depths. :'( We knew that she wasn't going to be an easy 'fix', but we're both at a total loss of to do next and feel that we're failing her. :(
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As I said before, I'm no expert, but I would say that the "humping" could be a sign that she's coming into season.
When Bess, my first unspayed bitch, came into season the first time, her moods were dreadful for weeks before the season actually happened. We also couldn't see any physical signs that her season was imminent, she just had really grumpy (and destructive) moods.
Someone else said that early spaying might be the answer in Lily's case. I know some vets are reluctant to spay before the first season, but I think exceptions can be made if it is felt that the dog would benefit.
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We had her booked in to be spayed today, actually, but then the vet said we needed to get her behaviour sorted first. She said the worst thing that could happen to Lily would be to be in pain and have aggression going on at the same time.
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I have just read this and I feel so sorry for you what a thing to go through and how awful that she has been deemed a tough nut to crack.
I have no advice sorry other than to say one of my bitches is very grumpy before her season, since end June and she is due August, hence she will be spayed after this one as she is constantly grumbling at my other bitch if she even looks in her direction it happened last time she was due then she goes fine once in season. Not grumpy with us though, also my other bitch humps when due in season and during her season. But he has discounted that and he is the expert so I am at a loss.
Its strange how she goes for you consistently though. I don't know what to say or suggest.
I hope you can get to the bottom of it with Davids help soon.
thinking of you
Sharon
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We already are staying away from her, and she does sleep in a crate. The worst part is she approaches us and sits happily at our feet for attention and if we stroke her she growls and lunges.
She is in the garden at the moment happily chewing a leaf and she still responds to our commands but then becomes aggressive after treating/praise. :(
I would be as hands off as possible at the moment.
If Lilly is feeling threatened she will react and if she has had a traumatic event then it could take days or even weeks for her stress levels to return to normal.
Do you know what David saw to say it was frustration?
Have her eyes been checked?
I wonder if this could also be related to the second fear stage that puppies go through? where they start to be fearful of things they were previously ok about.
Sounds like an insecure or worried dog rather than frustrated to me but so hard to tell from posts on a forum.
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I would discuss the spaying issue with your Behaviourist - he will obviously have a much better idea of what is going on than any of us can (not only is he an expert but he's also actually seen the behaviour)... and whether an earlier spay would help or hinder your work with her.
I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be going through this... and for what it's worth, I do think if you were feeling too stressed to work with her, you did the right thing by keeping your distance, as she would certainly pick up on your feelings!
Thinking of you and Lily, and hope you see some progress soon...
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I have no advice whatsoever, just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel as though you are 'failing her'. You have gone to the vet, engaged a great behavourist and you're on here asking lots of advice. You are working very hard on it so please don't put yourself down. You are obviously very devoted and committed to helping her. Chin up! Big hugs :luv:
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We had her booked in to be spayed today, actually, but then the vet said we needed to get her behaviour sorted first. She said the worst thing that could happen to Lily would be to be in pain and have aggression going on at the same time.
And apparently I've read in lots of places that spaying an aggressive bitch can make the aggression worse - not sure how true that is but your vet knows best anyway.
Good luck and hope you things improve for you.
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I have no advice whatsoever, just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel as though you are 'failing her'. You have gone to the vet, engaged a great behavourist and you're on here asking lots of advice. You are working very hard on it so please don't put yourself down. You are obviously very devoted and committed to helping her. Chin up! Big hugs :luv:
I totally agree, it sounds as if you are trying your very best to help your poor girl :-* :luv:. I have lived with an aggressive dog and although the circumstances were different, I have some idea what you are going through, it's like you are constantly walking on egg shells :'(. Massive hugs to both you and your OH, I hope you get to the bottom of little Lily's problems soon :luv:
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Take it one day at a time and don't get too bogged down by trying to 'fix' her straightaway. As mark has said be as hands off with her as poss unless it's during a training session where she has to learn to earn. Has David mentioned getting the full range of blood and thyroid tests done? What about rescue remedy, valerian and skullcap homeopathetic remedies? How is she behaving on walks and with other dogs/people?
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I don't have any advice but I wanted to wish you well, it sounds like you have a great vet and behaviourist so you are doing everything you can. I hope something obvious becomes apparent very soon and you are able to get her stable again. :blink:
Hannah x
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I don't have any advice but I wanted to wish you well, it sounds like you have a great vet and behaviourist so you are doing everything you can. I hope something obvious becomes apparent very soon and you are able to get her stable again. :blink:
Same here ;) You seem to be doing all you possibly can to sort out these problems - try not to get too downhearted. :-\ You will find lots of help and support on here :bigarmhug:
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I don't have any advice but I wanted to wish you well, it sounds like you have a great vet and behaviourist so you are doing everything you can. I hope something obvious becomes apparent very soon and you are able to get her stable again. :blink:
Same here ;) You seem to be doing all you possibly can to sort out these problems - try not to get too downhearted. :-\ You will find lots of help and support on here :bigarmhug:
And from me too :-* :-*
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I just want to thank you for all your help, advice and kind words -- a girl I met dog walking put me onto this site and I'm so glad. :blink:
This morning we followed David's advice about only giving her her food if we can stroke her and she doesn't growl. She started off growling and was obviously frustrated as she wasn't getting her food on her terms, but she soon got to know that she's not to growl when we stroke her and she gets some of her food - she only growled a couple of times and we totally ignored her! Might only be a little step, but it feels a massive step as we couldn't do this yesterday. Have weighed out her food for the day and will now give her little bits throughout the day and see if this helps.
Will ask David about getting blood tests done, getting her spayed sooner -- our main problem with this is that we can't actually get her in the car atm, so will be difficult getting her to the vets. Have thought about getting her a muzzel, but not sure how we will get it on her in the first place(!), but also don't want to make things worse for her.............
With regard to behaving on her walks/with other dogs -- she is fine and just wants to go and play with them! She is very responsive on a walk and we have got good recall with her, but saying that, we haven't taken her on a longish walk since Saturday, on David's advice, due to the problems getting her lead on her. We are playing with her in the garden, the back door is always open - I know this isn't ideal and hubby says he's going to take her for a walk tonight - he's stronger emotionally than me, so if she has a go at him, he can cope better than me.
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And apparently I've read in lots of places that spaying an aggressive bitch can make the aggression worse - not sure how true that is but your vet knows best anyway.
Correct! Neutering any animal while in this state can make matters worse the vet is spot on until the behaviour is sorted - don't spay.
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And apparently I've read in lots of places that spaying an aggressive bitch can make the aggression worse - not sure how true that is but your vet knows best anyway.
Correct! Neutering any animal while in this state can make matters worse the vet is spot on until the behaviour is sorted - don't spay.
blimey sounds like you have a decent vet that knows what they are talking about :D
I really hope that with this combination of a good vet and a good behaviourist that you have, you will be able to get there and I hope in the blood tests something raises it's head that is the cause of this and once treated all will be well
all the best and I hope things improve real soon for you :luv:
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From your last post, you sound as though you are making progress with her. I expect progress will be a little slow at first, but slow but sure is the best way.
I didn't know about the potential problems of spaying an aggressive bitch, so I'm sorry for having suggested it :embarassed:
I do however still think it's worth you trying Bach Rescue Remedy in her water. It can't do any harm and may do some good.
Good luck and please keep us posted on progress, however slow it may seem ;)
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I woke thinking about your little girlie this morning and something popped into my head. One of my pups had a puppy tooth that was growing in the wrong place and he was a very feisty puppy (he's a lovely softy now) but he seemed to change overnight as his adult teeth came through. My point is, the puppy tooth that was in the wrong place was obviously causing him a lot of discomfort but the vet wanted to avoid operating on him as the adult tooth was likely to be in the right place.
It might be worth getting all her teeth checked as something like that (sudden onset of tooth pain) could be the reason why her behaviour deteriorated so rapidly. It's a long shot but worth ruling out :D
Good luck
Hannah xxx
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I won't offer you any advice but just to say that I know how difficult it is living with a dog that has "issues". Well done for getting in a decent behaviourist and for standing by your girl.
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Another one here with no advice but I just wanted to say I admire your determination to help Lily and sort put her problems - many people would have given up at the first hurdle and it's heartwarming to hear how you are trying so hard for her, Best wishes :-*
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Can you try using a slip lead? you can make a big loop and just slip it over her head. When you take her for a walk what is she like when you take her lead off for free running? If her problem is frustration maybe even though she's only 6 months she may need a job to do to stimulate her mind. I know that if my 6 month old hadn't had any real exercise since Saturday she'd be like a raging bull. I do hope you get this sorted soon for all your sakes.
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Ruby had half her walk due to torrential rain ;llast night and she would not get back in the car for some time..keep up the exercise for sure? the slip lead means you don t have to get so close..lassoo effect which sounds ideal as being bitten is no joke!! from personal experience trying to muzzle a dog that does nt want to be is well nigh impossible ..we tried it to stop her eating undesirable dead objects... requires enormous coordination and spped to achieve it...it s good she still plays nicely with other dogs..that will relieve the frustration..I think this grumpiness sounds very hormonal..like us women we don t know what to do withj ourselves at that time of the month at times...I think it is the same for them the effects are quite suprising...Rnby dragged herself around like a depressed old woman when her hormones kicked in..a gneral check up for signs of pain would nt hurt i m sure! teeth or elsewhere..thinking of you Jo x
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I was going to suggest a slip lead too, you can just drop it over her head without having to reach for her and fiddle around her neck and to get it off you can just hold the lead forwards until it slackens and slide it over her head again without touching her. Good luck, it sounds like you have a good vet and a good behaviourist on your side so I hope you can get to the bottom of her issues.
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I have no useful advice just wanted to say I was thinking of you and in no way are you letting your girl down...you are seeking advice in all the right places and you are doing all you can :-*
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I was going to suggest a slip lead too, you can just drop it over her head without having to reach for her and fiddle around her neck and to get it off you can just hold the lead forwards until it slackens and slide if over her head again without touching her. Good luck, it sounds like you have a good vet and a good behaviourist on your side so I hope you can get to the bottom of her issues.
A cocker I fostered was really bad at putting her lead on and while out she'd try to bite me so using the slip lead was a godsend + with the rescue we use them a lot as well
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Hi Sorry to hear you are having problems I to have been having serious problems with aggression with my Daisy she is 10 mths we had her checked out with the vet think maybe you could do that to rule out any underlying problem and we to have seen a behaviorist and he is to see us at home tomorrow she has been a nightmare and last night started garding the hoover I sympathise as I know how you feel is hard to understand what could be going on she to is very insecure you are doing the best you can and I have had a lot of support off COL hope it helps to know someone is always ready to try to help or just listen
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An update:-
Was going to phone vet this morning and ask her about all the things you've suggested on here. However, she beat me to it! David had been in touch with her and suggested Lily has one of her K9's removed (she has an undershot jaw and one of her lower K9s is growing straight up into roof of her mouth, and she was going to have this removed when she was spayed). Hannah (vet) also mentioned about spaying her, so I questioned the aggression, and she said out of all the dogs she's spayed, only 1 became more agressive, so I said we'd be lead by her/David. Lily has also been itching her back legs alot, so she is going to have some allergy tests and I asked if she could have full bloods done when she's under - Hannah was also going to suggest this.
It's all booked in for Friday - having her tooth removed, allergy tests, blood tests and spaying! Hannah is also going to assess her generally.
After phone call, I spoke to my mum and she asked about giving her some pain killers (I've always said that I think alot of this is due to pain/undershot jaw), so I phoned vets back and got her some Metacam.
Now, and I say this very cautiously(!), since giving her the pain killer, we seem to have got our girl back :blink: and it's wonderful!! :D We've also followed what David said, making her earn her food through stroking, and we can now give her quite a fuss, but we're still reluctant to push it too far! When I came in from work, Lily was so happy to see me - it was the welcome I used to get! :D Hubby said se did the same to him, AND he managed to get the lead on her to take her out for a walk :blink:
Now we understand that as fantastic as this all is, we are still treading very cautiously. We also expect to go back to where we were this morning tomorrow morning, but hopefully it won't take as long as today to get her to where she is accepting our stroking her.
I'd can't thank you all enough for all the kind words of support and advice you have given us in these darkest days -- as you've said we're doing everything we can for her and as hard as it has been, we hope we have turned the corner, fingers crossed, eh. I'll keep updating on this thread as so many of you have asked me to let you know how she's getting on, but also, now I've found this site, I'll be here loads!! :D
Off to e-mail David now!!
Kate x
PS Daisy do -- good luck for tomorrow! :blink:
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Have been reading this thread but had no advice to offer, but just wanted to say it sounds like you have had a productive day and things may slowly start to improve. It's fantastic you have a great behaviourist and vet, take comfort from them and all the experience on here.
Will have my fingers crossed for you and hope this can be rectified and you get your little girl back. :blink:
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Do you know you have been on my mind all day. I so hope that you have found the cause and you can move forward from this point. She is lucky to have such wonderful caring owners. Please keep us all posted and I hope that the op goes well. Sending you all of our love Sharon Bella and Jasmine.
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So glad things seem to be moving forward, I have everything crossed that you are on the way to getting to the bottom of Lily's problems. Good luck for Friday, I will be thinking of you all :-* :luv:
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Wow that is very encouraging news. :D You are lucky to have great vet and behaviourist to help and advise. :D It sounds like Lily has been in some pain so no wonder she has been so cross :-\ I hope the removal of her tooth will solve the problem - hopefully you will be able to keep her pain free now so that should help. Well done for persevering to find the cause - wouldn't it be easy if they could talk ? :-\
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Fantastic that you seem to have found a reason for her behaviour, thank god for owners like you :D.
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So glad to hear things sounding more positive! :D You're doing a great job! You;re absolutely right, everything is baby steps, with sometimes a backward slide, but it all keeps moving forward so don't lose heart
Do keep us posted on how you get on :blink:
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Now, and I say this very cautiously(!), since giving her the pain killer, we seem to have got our girl back :blink: and it's wonderful!! :D We've also followed what David said, making her earn her food through stroking, and we can now give her quite a fuss, but we're still reluctant to push it too far! When I came in from work, Lily was so happy to see me - it was the welcome I used to get! :D Hubby said se did the same to him, AND he managed to get the lead on her to take her out for a walk :blink:
That brought tears to my eyes. I am so pleased that you seem to have found the root of the problem and that she will hopefully be sorted after Friday.
Well done you for seeking help and advice and not just writing her off as aggressive as too many people do.
I look forward to reading about how Lily is getting on and of course, seeing photos of her.
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Brilliant news, sounds very positive all paws crossed here for continued success
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For all of you who have supported us. This is the reason we keep going. This was taken on holiday a couple of weeks ago, she'd just been paddling in the sea.
(http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx259/Flunky1973/IMG_2761.jpg)
(http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx259/Flunky1973/IMG_2754.jpg)
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Lovely to see missimoo. (what I call my daughter when she is crouchy). Hope all is ok on Friday.
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Shes lovely :luv:
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sounds as tho things are heading the right way - I am so pleased to read your post and to see her pic :luv:
All the best for friday - will have everything crossed here for you all :luv:
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thats great news and what a bonnie wee girl she is. :luv:
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Oooh! She looks just like my dog Dave! But her white 'naughty spot' is a little bigger :005:
Dave was a very feisty aggressive pup (even just saying 'no' or 'Ah ah' provoked a full on attack with growling and biting) but he's fine now - although I'll always have to be a little careful with him. I suspect your problems are a little different but 'puppyhood' can be responsible for a lot of behaviour that does eventually fade. Hope it does for your little lady too :luv:
Keeping everything crossed for you!
Hannah xxx
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Glad to hear you seem to have turned a corner, and that your vet is going to look into all the potential health issues... :D
Lily is :luv: and while I'm sure you have a lot of work ahead of you, I'm sure it will be worth it...
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What a stunning girl, she is just gorgeous :luv: :luv: :luv:
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So glad your making headway, Good luck for Friday :luv:
She is a beautiful Girl :luv:
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so glad to hear that you may have turned a corner. She's a lovely looking girl and clearly well worth the effort. Good luck for Friday :-*
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Fantastic to read your latest posts - will be thinking of you on Friday and hoping she flies through the op :luv:
She's a gorgeous little girl :luv:
You could start her on some homeopathic arnica to help with her bruising and healing after the ops - this can be started in advance of the op and can really help ;)
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You could start her on some homeopathic arnica to help with her bruising and healing after the ops - this can be started in advance of the op and can really help ;)
I was going to suggest this too - Arnica is magic stuff. It can really reduce bruising so may help with her discomfort after the op. No problem giving it with her other meds either ;)
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I have just read this thread, how lucky is Lily to have such caring owners :D, i hope her op on Friday is uncomplicated. It would seem she must have some pain if better with Metacam.
So pleased you found COL, i wonder who that girl you met on your walk and recommended the site was?
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Oh gosh, I've just read your post about her tooth - I don't know if you saw what I wrote earlier:
I woke thinking about your little girlie this morning and something popped into my head. One of my pups had a puppy tooth that was growing in the wrong place and he was a very feisty puppy (he's a lovely softy now) but he seemed to change overnight as his adult teeth came through. My point is, the puppy tooth that was in the wrong place was obviously causing him a lot of discomfort but the vet wanted to avoid operating on him as the adult tooth was likely to be in the right place.
It might be worth getting all her teeth checked as something like that (sudden onset of tooth pain) could be the reason why her behaviour deteriorated so rapidly. It's a long shot but worth ruling out :D
Good luck
Hannah xxx
Dave had a lower K9 that was growing into the roof of his mouth and created a hole... by the time we discovered it, we decided to leave it to see how his adult tooth came through but in hindsight, his behaviour changed so dramatically when his adult teeth came through (in the right place) it must have really been bugging him - tooth pain is awful when you understand it so for a dog it must be 100 times worse.
I'm keeping everything crossed that you get a similar result for your girlie.. Dave was REALLY aggressive but he's not as energetic as some cockers so I guess that may have been why he wasn't quite so extreme as your case, but to highlight it, I did have to keep him separate from my 4 yr old son for the first 8 months.
Good luck for Friday!
Hannah xxx
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Oooh! She looks just like my dog Dave! But her white 'naughty spot' is a little bigger :005:
Was just thinking that!
Gordo she is gorgeous, love the first pic! I am soo glad to hear things seem to be picking up and fingers crossed you have finally got to the source of the problem
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Oh My Goodness :luv:
She is beautiful :luv:
Wishing Lily the very best of luck for her op on Friday
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Beebee it was me who mentioned COL! Glad to hear things are looking more positive for you, Lilly is very lucky to have such dedicated owners :luv: Have just seen the thread and glad I started at the end with the good news!
Good luck on Friday and look forward to seeing you out and about again with the gorgeous Lilly ;)
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Hope all goes well for the op and that you get back the Lilly you fell in love with, she's gorgeous :luv:
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So glad your making headway, Good luck for Friday
She is a beautiful Girl :luv:
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Hope this is the help that's needed - I would think that if the pain is from her jaw then anything around her head or attempts to go near that area would be met with some displeasure.
Well done you though for sticking by her
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Thankyou for your good wishes for Daisy do today I am starting my journey to and are thinking of YOU :luv: :luv:and very pleased you are on your way to sort out Lilys problem and after that I am sure you will get your girl back you have done all the right things and worked hard to find the cause and I am sure you will be rewarded.I to got to know about this COL from soeone with a cocker out walking [by the way it was Mason] I love the help and support you get from everyone these little dogs take some understanding sometimes, love to you and speedy recovery to Lily maybe rescue remedy for you and her may help Friday :-* :luv:
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So pleased there is good news with Lily :D
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It's all booked in for Friday - having her tooth removed, allergy tests, blood tests and spaying! Hannah is also going to assess her generally.
as she's also being spayed i would ask about prophylactic antibiotics as well - any ops to do with the teeth also carry risks re infection of spay wound
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Oh I really hope that this is the cause of the change in her. She is such a beauty.
All the best for Friday.
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She is beautiful. So glad that things have taken a positive turn - hope it continues and you get your girl back full time. All credit to your vet and behaviouist - as well as you - for properly persevereing and investigating all options. If only other doggies were as lucky as Lily :luv: :luv:
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She is a stunner :luv:
It does sound like you've found the cause, so good luck for Friday ;)
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Reading this thread, it does sound SO much like my Alfie. His agression suddenly increased over a week or so, and we could "tell" he was in pain, even though 2 vets told us it was behavioural problems (which there are too, to be fair to them, but we knew they werent the cause of this sudden increase)
A few weeks on the painkillers has seen an enormous reduction in his agression, although it will still flare up if he overdoes it on a walk, or gets too carried away with his playfighting with Purdey. Generally he is a different dog. Tomorrow we are taking him back to the vets for our "1 month on" check up so hopefully now he will be able to see the painkillers have made, he will look harder at the physical problems, which I am pretty sure are related to his dodgy knee ligament!
I really hope that the tooth problem is the answer and that you continue to see a change in your gorgeous girl.
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I am so pleased things are going well for you. Lily looks adorable :luv: :luv: I hope everything goes well on friday.
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Thanks once again for all your kind messages - I'm still stunned by the response to our desperation on Sunday. It just shows what a caring bunch COL are!! :luv:
Lily seems to be coming on leaps and bounds -- no growling at all today, apart from 'play growls', and she knew from the word 'go' what to expect in the way of getting fed and has just accepted it! :D The change in her is phenomenal and she is letting us fuss her more and more, actually comes looking for it now which is the old Lily, and is just happy again. :D It suggests she's been in pain on and off for a while, and even David has said since going on the Metacam and seeing a change in her behaviour isn't a coincidence. Long may it continue! (She's even getting her nose in on this and helping me type it!! :005:)
Hubby was able to put her lead on her again today but we haven't progressed to the car harness yet! Maybe tomorrow, but maybe not, as we set her back.
Will keep you posted.
Thanks again. xx
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That's great news, I'm so pleased for you :D
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That sounds very encouraging. Poor little girl - she was in pain and trying to tell you. :-\ I hope things are on the up for you all now :D
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That sounds very encouraging. Poor little girl - she was in pain and trying to tell you. :-\ I hope things are on the up for you all now :D
Ditto from me, that is really great news and I hope all goes well for her at the vet on Friday.
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that is fantastic news that things are progressing so well
I'm so pleased to read this as it looks like you are on the way to getting your loving pup back :luv:
All our thoughts will be with you on friday :luv:
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Wow it's so amazing to read how she's changed since being on the metacam! Good luck once again for Friday :luv:
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Havnt logged on for a while so just catching up with everyones threads....you sound like such caring owners who are determined not to give up on your little one...well done to you all :-* hope Friday brings good results for you all ;)
She is beautiful :luv: :luv:
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Great news on progress. Will be thinking of you on Friday :-*
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Hmmmm......
Not such a good day today ::)
When we got up this morning, followed the same routine, but when I went to fuss Lily, after her usual happy greeting, she growled and lunged at me. Got really upset at this as thought we'd got past this, but obviously not - or maybe I was just expecting too much? She hadn't long had her Metcam so maybe that hadn't kicked in. We got past this and she was lovely after (she always goes back to bed when hubby goes off to work so I can get showered etc, and when I came back downstairs she was back to her happy self :blink:)
Hubby actually got her in her car harness today, 2nd attempt as 1st she just wanted to play. She went into the car no problem and was ver happy to be down the park! Howeveer, on the way back to the car, she rolled in some fox poo ph34r so when he got her home and tried to lift her into the bath, she started growing so he backed off. So she ended up being washed with the hose outside. Does this mean it's not pain related ?!?
Because of her aggression the vets are sending someone to collect Lily for her op. But, hubby is going to talk to Hannah (Vet) first to discuss whether we have her spayed or not. Had an email from David regarding research into the effect of spaying aggressive dogs, not sure what to think based on this.
The research that has been conducted (Peachy and O’Farrell) is not very robust but it found that bitches that were already aggressive were less likely to be cured of the aggression if they were spayed before the problem was resolved. This not exactly as the paper words it but I know the first author and this what she says should be understood from the paper. One of the things the paper did not look at, if I remember correctly, is the differences in those bitches that are aggressive only in the pre stage of their season (FSH (PMT like) stage which we think can change behaviour up to a month before season itself and during the prolactin stage, i.e when they would be feeing puppies had they been mated (behaviour can be effected if there are signs of milk or not). Both these stages are associated with increased reactivity and control of resources and therefore the potential for aggression is increased. Neutering during the prolacin stage can result in ongoing aggression problems (not applicable here, not yet anyway).
Any ideas/opinions? She's 6 months old.
Thanks,
Kate x
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Sorry you feel like you have had a setback and although I'm am in NO way qualified to offer behavioural advise, i dont think its going to be a short road to recovery for you and Lily and you have to deal with each day has it comes and whatever set backs you feel you have put them aside and move on (not easy to do i know )
Personally i think 6 months is too young to be spayed regardless of weather you have aggression issues or not...and it isn't always a cure for aggression :-\ i did notice you said you had asked you vet about aggression and spaying bitches and she said that only one that she knew got worse...did you ask if any had got better :huh: or had they still got the same level of aggression after the spay :-\ it can also take a fair while for the hormones to settle after a spay so if it is going to have any effect it wont be immediate :-\
as i said im not really qualified to suggest what you should do but if it was my dog i would hold off on the spay to see if anything else can be found (bloods/poorly tooth) the spay could always be done at a later date but once done it is done and you cant go back ;)
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My vet always advises them to be spayed after their 1st season anyway and in my dog's case that was when she was a year old.
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As someone who has chronic pain, I can have off days even with the amount of medication I am on. I suppose it could be the same with Lily? I've no advice re the spaying, I can't imagine how hard you are finding this decision though :-*
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Hubby actually got her in her car harness today, 2nd attempt as 1st she just wanted to play. She went into the car no problem and was ver happy to be down the park! Howeveer, on the way back to the car, she rolled in some fox poo ph34r so when he got her home and tried to lift her into the bath, she started growing so he backed off. So she ended up being washed with the hose outside. Does this mean it's not pain related ?!?
Lifting her could still have caused pain somehow and is quite a 'hands on' thing to do so the combo maybe pushed her into growling. Metacam is not a high strength medication so she could still have felt discomfort.
Personally I wouldnt have her spayed until you see how having the tooth sorted helps.
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You will have good days and not so good days, setbacks are to be expected. And yes, don't expect too much too soon, you still have a way to go yet, so hang in there
Here is strictly my (non-professional) opinion: I live in the US where bitches are routinely spayed at 6 months and usually before their first season. I have never heard of spaying making an aggressive dog worse, but it is not the behavioural remedy that neutering can sometimes be for certain male problems. In other words, spaying an aggressive bitch is not necessarily going to make her better or worse, she's still going to be aggressive no matter spayed or unspayed, if there is no other training or rehabilitating in place. However, spaying will remove the hormonal trigger for certain types of aggression (as mentioned in David's email) and mood swings
Personally, if she were my dog I would go ahead with the spaying as it is going to become an issue sooner or later; the evidence is just not there in favor of waiting for a first heat, and I don't think going through all the possible uproar of a season is helpful at all for a dog with behavioural issues. :-\ And the idea of a bitch with issues going through a false pregnency is a nightmare :-\
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I was finding it hard to decide whether to get Millie spayed as she has some fear aggression with people and is grumpy with other dogs and I was advised by my trainer that spaying could make her worse. However when I looked into it the opinion of most people is that as bitches are usually done before fully mature the aggressive temperament would have come through anyway despite the fact they were spayed. She is now three and I had her spayed last Thursday as the amount of stray dogs where I live and the risk of pyometra were a problem for me. Obviously much too soon to tell! But having the trauma of being left at the vets and then the pain, effects of GA, restricted exercises and wearing a lampshade have been quite stressful for her. Having to put her through that twice instead of getting it done in one go would be something I would have to think very hard about :-\.
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That sounds very encouraging. Poor little girl - she was in pain and trying to tell you. :-\ I hope things are on the up for you all now :D
Ditto from me, that is really great news and I hope all goes well for her at the vet on Friday.
and from me too - if only we could speak fluent 'dog' :-\ :luv: :luv: :luv:
good luck for today, remember the arnica ;)
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Good luck at the vet today. Sorry you have had a few setbacks but I guess this is not going to be an instant fix. :-\
Not sure what I would do re the spaying tbh but it might be difficult dealing with aggression problems as well as a season so I think I would probably go ahead with the op. :-\
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Just wanted to wish you good luck for today :-* Hope all goes well :-*
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I definitely wouldn't spey till after her 1st season. I would want her to go through this rough time and see what she's like several months after and then get her speyed.(only my opinion) Once it's done you can't change it.
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Hope everything goes well at the vets today
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Hi, Dont know what you decided as regards to the spay but I assume Lilly would have had her tooth out today, I so hope that she has gone on ok and that this has been the cause of some of the problem. I loved the photos she is so cute, I have a little blue roan girl too Jasmine and she too loves the beach so it upsets me to think about little Lily. You are such wonderful owners she is very lucky. I hope that you have time later to post and let us know how she has got on.
Thinking of you, take care
Lots of love Sharon Bella and Jasmine X woof woof
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Not sure what you decided to do but having seen how much change there was in my pup when he lost his sore tooth, I would be tempted to just have the tooth out and see how she goes from there. He was SUCH a different dog after his adult teeth came through :luv: :luv:
Hannah xx
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Lily has just come back from the vets -- she had tooth out, blood tests and allergy tests done but wasn't spayed. The e-mail David (behaviourist) had sent us was sent to Hannah (vet) too, and she recommended we didn't have her spayed today.
Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected. She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him :( Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain????
Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow. Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........
Thanks for all the good wishes -- will come on and say how she's doing later and over the weekend. Also, thanks for your opinion about getting her spayed - as it happened, the decision was really made for us, but if it had been suggested that she was spayed, I think we would have said no!!!!
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Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected. She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him :( Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain????
Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow. Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........
Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.
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Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected. She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him :( Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain????
Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow. Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........
Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.
Really great advice Jo.
Lots of luck with her over the next few days, hoping this has done the trick and she will slowly start to improve and learn to be ok with everyone again :luv: :luv:
Hannah xxx
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Thanks for that, Joanne - that is what we thought, but it's good to have someone voice what we're thinking!! :blink:
Will keep away from her for the rest of today and start to reintroduce the training again tomorrow.
She's back in her crate now, sound asleep, which is the best place for her.
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I have just sat and read through your entire thread and whilst I don't have any advice for you I just wanted to say we are thinking about you. Lily is very lucky to have such a caring mum and dad and I wish you every success working things through with your vet and behaviourist.
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I have just sat and read through your entire thread and whilst I don't have any advice for you I just wanted to say we are thinking about you. Lily is very lucky to have such a caring mum and dad and I wish you every success working things through with your vet and behaviourist.
Ditto here :luv:
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Glad she is back and ok, cant say I blame her for being grumpy. The advice is good lets hope you have a happier puppy over the coming days. Thanks for posting, logged on especially to see how she was doing.
Best wishes to you all sharon xx
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Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected. She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him :( Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain????
Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow. Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........
Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.
Really great advice Jo.
Lots of luck with her over the next few days, hoping this has done the trick and she will slowly start to improve and learn to be ok with everyone again :luv: :luv:
Hannah xxx
another one who think's Jo's advice is spot on - also did she have a GA? that can really knock them around for a little while after the op ;)
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Completely agree as well, we have one here who does not react at all well to GA, apart from the sensitivies it gives his tummy, it is the only time he really guards toys etc and ever shown aggression but it does normally pass by the day after.
My fingers are crossed for you all...
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One other thing I would say is be patient with her. As the others have said, the affects of the anaesthetic may last for days if not weeks, so she will be confused and groggy.
Also she may have got into a habit of growling, so it could take a few weeks after the pain goes, before she stops growling (if that is what was causing it) - well, according to the vet who saw Alfie yesterday.
Any new techniques that seem to be working will take TIME to become fool-proof. Our behaviourist suggests trying things for 6-8 weeks consistently before you can tell if they are working, so dont give up if she doesnt seem much improved at first.
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Any new techniques that seem to be working will take TIME to become fool-proof. Our behaviourist suggests trying things for 6-8 weeks consistently before you can tell if they are working, so dont give up if she doesnt seem much improved at first.
So agree with this, behaviour is rarely modified overnight.
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Update:-
Lily's behaviour has improved so much since last week, and it can't be a coincidence that it has happened since having her tooth out :blink: She was grumpy when she came home on Friday, but Saturday morning she was so happy, but very tired, and by Sunday she was her happy, bright self and we were able to take her out for a walk on her lead, no problems :D
I took her out for the 1st time this morning, on my own, and again she was fine.
However, the problem we still have is with her car harness, as this still seems to trigger the snarling, lunging and guarding behaviour :huh: We were supposed to take her back to the vets tonight for her post op check, but couldn't get the harness anywhere near her -- she took it off for a chew, and guarded it whenever we went near her/it.
We were advised that we needed to use the clicker to help with getting her lead and harness on, ie, when either is on with no growling, click-treat, however, I don't know how we can practice this if we can't get her harness anywhere near her? Any suggestions will be greatly received!!
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Can you use a crate in the car instead of a harness or attach her lead to the inside of the car another way? You get leads which have a seatbelt thingy at the end which could greatly help you! Is it the ancol car harness you use with the flappy seatbelt part and metal halfloop at the end? Where do you try and put the harness on her? Indoors or out?
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The crate seems a good idea, but I also wondered if you knew someone with an estate or hatchback with a dog guard so until she has the all clear from the vet, the harness isn't an issue.
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crate in the car for me every time..she has her own space and can freak out with pre walk excitement without causing hell to attatch her!!good luck! JO >:( :D
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If you need to persevere with the harness, I would go right back to basics.... so get the harness out, if she doesn't react - click-treat. Gradually get it closer to her, and again click-treat any lack of reaction. Once she will sit calmly with her focus on you with the harness on the floor beside her, begin to work towards getting her to wear it... again take very very tiny baby steps... (Obviously, if this conflicts totally with the advice of your behaviourist, then ignore me... I'm not an expert and I haven't seen Lily!)
It could be that her tooth was knocked at some point putting the harness on, so she may associate the harness with an increase in the pain in her mouth and while the pain may be gone, the association will still be there...
As others have said, finding a different way to transport her may be the better option (at least in the short term!).
Glad to hear things are going so well generally!!
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Can you use a crate in the car instead of a harness or attach her lead to the inside of the car another way? You get leads which have a seatbelt thingy at the end which could greatly help you! Is it the ancol car harness you use with the flappy seatbelt part and metal halfloop at the end?
That's what I was going to suggest - a crate might be the answer or a dog guard in the back of the car. ;)
I agree that long-term it would be a good idea to get her used to the harness :-\
So glad she seems to be almost back to her happy self again though :D :luv:
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I have just sat and read through your entire thread and whilst I don't have any advice for you I just wanted to say we are thinking about you. Lily is very lucky to have such a caring mum and dad and I wish you every success working things through with your vet and behaviourist.
Ditto here :luv:
Just caught up with your latest updates & pics. Wishing you the best of luck in your journey with Lily.
She's a lucky girl to have such dedicated parents. :luv:
Love Jo & Milly xx
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So so happy to hear that she is getting better and making good progress, I am really pleased for you all.
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Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions on our car harness problem. :blink:
Have thought about having her crate in the back -- would have to load her in and then put it in the car, but not sure our car is big enough. Will have to try this out. Have also thought about getting a dog guard, but I know we won't be able to pick her up to get her in the car atm.
The harness is the ancol one, with the flappy seatbelt part and metal hoop -- we put it on in the house when we can, but have to put it on in the car when we're out for a walk.
Have e-mailed behaviourist and will see what he comes back with.
SO glad it's this time this week -- when I think back to what was happening last week, I never thought we'd be where we are now!!
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Have also thought about getting a dog guard, but I know we won't be able to pick her up to get her in the car atm.
You can buy ramps for this, I'm sure Argos sell them? I'm so glad to hear how she's been improving :luv:
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Just an idea that may help for a short term fix with getting Lily in the car, there is a dog training lead that has several 'D' rings and clips either end, so basically it can be adjusted to a short or long lead and also used for clipping the dog onto a fixture in a car. I have some of these leads and they are brilliant because they are so adaptable. ;) They are available from k9capers.com and are called Ferplast Nylon Dog Training Lead 120cm - 200cm & 2.5 cm width, cost £9.13.
I wish you good luck with Lily and really hope she makes good progress. It sounds positive already. :D
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Hi Gordo, have pm'd you re car... Shout if doesn't come through!
Jo
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If you need to persevere with the harness, I would go right back to basics.... so get the harness out, if she doesn't react - click-treat. Gradually get it closer to her, and again click-treat any lack of reaction. Once she will sit calmly with her focus on you with the harness on the floor beside her, begin to work towards getting her to wear it... again take very very tiny baby steps... (Obviously, if this conflicts totally with the advice of your behaviourist, then ignore me... I'm not an expert and I haven't seen Lily!)
I had a nightmare cocker foster pup who would bite my hands to shreds putting the harness on + I also realised it took longer as we both got stressed - I then did what karma did - gave him a large treat/biscuit for sitting nicely then put one bit of harness on, got him to sit again, treated, put another bit on etc. - it was done faster, neither of us were stressed and I didn't need to find the bandaid afterwards
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can you not get a smaller crate for the car,
i have one in my car he can stand up in it, turn around and lay down.
it would not be big enough to use indoors, but it is plenty big enough for the car,
if you needed a ramp you could make one from some wood just to get you out of trouble
the other thing my Mum dose with her dogs is that they sit in the front foot well,
with the lead tied to the door Handel, this seams to work fine, as they only ever go in the car to go to the vets.
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you can get soft crates that aren't very big :D
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you can get soft crates that aren't very big :D
Good idea I bought the small size when I was going to collect a rescue dog as it fitted in the boot, with Rufus. It was too small to use generally for him but would be fine in the car. As Rufus travels in the boot with a dog guard I swapped it for medium when I didn't get the dog. They were about £39 at PAH. I will use it if we go away as it folds flat.
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I have a soft crate that I don't use, pm me if you're interested.....its pretty much brand new. Not sure of the measurements, but will check.
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Hello
This is my first post on the forum and I read with understanding your frustration and hurt that this aggression is becoming worse and is not understood. Just before Xmas last year, we took in a beautiful golden cocker spaniel who had lived in kennels for 4 months due to her owner going into a hospice. We understand that she will be 3 in August and I must admit that her behaviour has gradually improved. She is still possessive over her food, even if she smells it and doesn't want to eat it yet, she will lie down next to it, at first growling deeply and viciously if you even go into the kitchen. She is not allowed to have any toys or bones etc. as she is possessive over these too, so we have learnt not to put her in that position in the first place. She used to growl terribly at my 11 year old son for no reason and again, this has gradually got better although if she is on our bed and he gets on, she will just move away and we then understand that she does not want to be bothered with him, but at other times she goes to him and licks him affectionately.
I agree with the others though - why is this dog so highly strung at only 6 months? Sound advice has been given that you need to totally ignore the negative behaviour and praise the good. No eye contact, talking or anything and let the dog come to you as and when ready. Also a good idea to delve deeper into any possible health issues. Another thing to think about is your apprehension - is this being picked up and making matters worse?
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Just thought I'd write an update on how things are going with Lily.
She is soooooo much better -- she'll happily come to us for a fuss, but maybe that's because she knows she's going to get some food!! She will also happily sit at our feet with a toy, treat ball or chewey and not growl if we move, move out feet or look at her, so that is progress! :shades:
We've decided to get a crate for her instead of battling with the harness. We had to update David, and he suggested the crate being the best as we can put her in it before putting her in the car. Will have to get a smaller crate as we can't get the one she uses in the house into our car. Either this or a bigger car, which is what hubby wants! ;)
Thanks again for all the support you've given us. :luv:
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So pleased you are making progress, long may it continue!
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That's great news. I'm so pleased you've made such good progress with her. I'm sure she will come on in leaps & bounds now that the hurty tooth has gone.
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That's great news. I'm so pleased you've made such good progress with her. I'm sure she will come on in leaps & bounds now that the hurty tooth has gone.
Ditto - glad you are on the way to getting your old girl back :luv:
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brilliant news! :D
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Lovely news. Glad it is going so well now.
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So pleased for you :luv: :luv: :luv:
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Fantastic news. What a relief for you.
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Wonderful news. :D
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just fantastic news :D :luv:
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Really pleased that you can see an improvement for all the hard work you have put in. :D
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I am so pleased to read this, and I know Anne (daisy do) will be thrilled for you too :luv: :luv:
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How wonderful to read that all is getting better for you, I hope it continues. Thanks for the update.
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Excellent news :D
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We've just had the allergy test results back for Lily -- she's allergic to mites, including dust mites from the house ph34r. The vet is arranging for more indepth tests to be done due to her age and we'll see what this shows up. (Tip from us - get your dog insured!!! There would be no way we could afford all this if Lily wasn't! They might chuck us out next year or our payments will increase greatly!!)
On the whole, Lily is much better, but we've still got issues with her when we dry her with a towel and try to brush her, and then she becomes very snarley and growley, she does lunge at us, but nothing like she did. Think we're going to have to introduce this back to her in the same way we've been stroking her - 1 stroke of the brush, as long as no growls she can have some food. Same with the towel, but think we may have to use a smaller towel as just seeing it winds her up -- my mum has suggested using kitchen roll made into a pad, which is what she does with her dog. However, now, as quickly as it escallates, she calms down, so that's got to be progress! Also, if we fuss her and she needs to scratch, she will growl, lunge etc, but after having a good scratch, will happily sit and be fussed.
Thanks once again for the support and well wishes - can't believe where we were with her a couple of weeks ago cpmpared to now!!
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Glad you are getting somewhere. Guess it makes sense, if you had an itch and someone was tickling you it would make it worse and you'd want to scratch it even more. Probably learning to watch her signals will be a great way of assessing how she is and whether or not its a good time for interacting with her.
As for the towels you could also try those small micro towels for cleaning with they are the size of a duster but can hold up to something like 2-3 times their weight in water so could soak up the moisture better, but still very small. You can also buy larger ones and just throw it over her basket and let it soak up the moisture after she has been for a walk, or is just wet when she's not in the mood to be towel dried.
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Glad to hear things are still improving - and if her allergies have been adding to her problems then at least there will be some relief in sight for that!
I agree with the gradually introducing the comb and towel... :D
And don't worry about your insurance... pet insurance works on set factors of risk (age, breed etc) not the number of previous claims... :shades:
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Update:-
Unfortunately things have deteriorated with Lily :( -- she's bitten hubby today, really without provocation. He went to put her lead on, she growled to warn him off, so when she calmed down, he was practicing reintroducing the lead to her with click-treat and she seemed ok with this, but as soon as he touched her collar to get to the loop to the top of her neck, she bit him on the arm with no warning growl :( :( She has also been very growly ever since about anything and everything :(
It's a real set back for us as she was doing so well - we could put her lead on/take it off/fuss her around her collar etc. We've been back in touch with her breeder as we both think that she is affecting my health :'( - may sound weird, but I'm so stressed out with it all and am exhausted so picking up everything. We also can't trust her around our nephew and neice, and we also want to have a family (starting fertility treatment this month) and I just don't know how I can cope with her anymore :'( Obviously, rehoming her would be our last resort but I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel :'( :'(
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I am sorry to read your update - specially when you thought things were improving :'( Sending you support and good wishes. When it is affecting your own health that is not good.
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So sorry you have had a set back, it's a horrible feeling when you feel there's little hope.
Sending you and lily lots of positive thoughts I hope things improve.
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:'( Oh dear I am sorry to hear about this set back :-\
I can sense your despair, :'( it must be heartbreaking when you have put so much effort into helpng Lily !
I hope your behaviourist can still come up with some way to overcome her problems, but whatever you decide to do nobody could have tried harder :luv:
Thinking of you
Jann and Flo :luv:
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Really sorry to here this, things were looking so positive for a while, you must be so worried :'(. I really hope you can get to the bottom of Lily's problems and get your lovely girl back, I am thinking of you :luv: :luv:
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It's understandable that you feel so demoralised, but overcoming Lilly's behaviour was never going to be a steady improvement... there will be days when you feel you are going backwards again, but as long as overall progress is in the right direction, then you will get there in the end.
She may have been tired today, or just in a bad mood, but this doesn't negate all the positives you have posted...
It's so soul destroying when you do have that bad day, but tomorow is a whole new day... go back to the beginning in your handling of her and you will find you progress so much quicker this time around.... :D
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It's understandable that you feel so demoralised, but overcoming Lilly's behaviour was never going to be a steady improvement... there will be days when you feel you are going backwards again, but as long as overall progress is in the right direction, then you will get there in the end.
She may have been tired today, or just in a bad mood, but this doesn't negate all the positives you have posted...
It's so soul destroying when you do have that bad day, but tomorow is a whole new day... go back to the beginning in your handling of her and you will find you progress so much quicker this time around.... :D
Ditto what Karma said. Try not to be too disheartened, also, if you are finding it stressful, this will also affect Lilly, I would imagine. Stay strong and calm, and see what tomorrow brings :luv:
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It's understandable that you feel so demoralised, but overcoming Lilly's behaviour was never going to be a steady improvement... there will be days when you feel you are going backwards again, but as long as overall progress is in the right direction, then you will get there in the end.
She may have been tired today, or just in a bad mood, but this doesn't negate all the positives you have posted...
It's so soul destroying when you do have that bad day, but tomorow is a whole new day... go back to the beginning in your handling of her and you will find you progress so much quicker this time around.... :D
Ditto what Karma said. Try not to be too disheartened, also, if you are finding it stressful, this will also affect Lilly, I would imagine. Stay strong and calm, and see what tomorrow brings :luv:
I agree - it must be so upsetting when you have allowed youself to think that the worst is behind you. You have come so far and done so much for your little girl, but it was never going to be a quick fix. :-\ I hope things are better tomorrow. :bigarmhug:
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Totally agree with Karma.
Tomorrow is another day and please don't give up on her. :luv: Thinking of you all and sending positive thoughts. :luv:
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We knew Lily wouldn't be a 'quick fix', but she was worse today than she's ever been - that's the worst un-warned bite she's ever done, if fact she's never done an unwarned bite before :-\
We also understand that she may pick up on the stress I'm feeling, but I'm also finding it very difficult to not be stressed when her behaviour has gone so extreme again :(
We've e-mailed David (behaviourist) and he'll hopefully get back to us very soon.
We really don't want to give up on Lily as we both love her to bits and have put in so much work with her, but I wonder what else we can do? :huh: Yes, tomorrow is another day, but whenever she is like this, it is so difficult to trust her and then the question arises, 'will we ever be able to trust her?' and what about around kids? (thinking of fertility treatment here which will hopefully work, fingers crossed) I'm sitting here crying as I just don't know what to do next :'( :'( :'(
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I remember feeling exactly as you are now, I think I cried every night for a week, and tearing myself in 2 about keeping Charlie or re-homing him, I often felt he would be better with people who have more experience than me and I still think that now at times. It is tough and any improvement is so very gradual, but I believe that a dog will always resort to biting once they have done it as it works :-\, it is about careful control of their environment etc.
Please don't beat yourself up you are doing all you can and if you decide to re-home Lily then you can do so knowing you really tried hard for her.
Hugs and positive thoughts being sent your way :-*
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sorry I have no advice just wanted to say I am thinking of you :luv:
Jo x
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But what have we done to her to make her like this? :huh:
I feel this is all our fault, mine especially as I've spent more time with her :-\
I've heard people say that once a dog has bitten, they will continue to do it as it 'works', but what are we supposed to do if she bites without warning? Does this mean we've got an aggressive dog? And if we've got an aggressive dog now, will she always be classed as an aggressive dog, ie not letting her off the lead, having to muzzel her, etc? And what if, heaven forbid, she bites someone else? It's bad enough when she bites us, but......?
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Just wanted to say, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I have been where you are now, with Ben and struggled to make sense of his agression.
What I will say is that things have improved here vastly, I know Ben will bite me if I handle him wrong and I accept that as part of him (last month had a tetanus as one bite was quite deep >:D) and I choose to live with it because that is just one part of him and the rest of him is georgous :luv: However we don't have children :-\ and I really honestly do know what would have happened if we did, and Ben is six now and has calmed down considerably, but the first three years were >:D
I do hope you are able to find the help you need and that it all works out for you. make sure you get good advice though ;)
Good luck, thinking of you
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You havent done ANYTHING intentional which is why its so hard to see whats going on without professional help but you have been doing something to cause her to react as she is. In my experience of fostering rehab dogs the vast majority of dogs which have bitten and been reactive in their previous (very loving) homes come into foster and are absolutely fine from the start or within a very short space of time purely because experienced fosterers are very good on understanding dog behaviour and body language and so the dogs learn to trust them very quickly. Its not an easy thing to learn and takes lots of practice (and making mistakes too) to be able to help 'aggressive' dogs. Try and remember that every dog is capable of biting, this is a natural and acceptable thing for a dog to do to another dog in certain situations but in a domestic environment obviously not something that should happen to their human family. Everything about a dogs behaviour (and every species on the planet) is designed to promote survival so it is not a good survival tactic to bite for no reason. Dogs bite to protect themselves and as a last resort. Because we as humans dont understand everything about how they interact with each other we often make millions of mistakes in interpreting their behaviour. Even experts (like David Appleby) will tell you they can always learn something new about dog behaviour.
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You havent done ANYTHING intentional which is why its so hard to see whats going on without professional help but you have been doing something to cause her to react as she is. In my experience of fostering rehab dogs the vast majority of dogs which have bitten and been reactive in their previous (very loving) homes come into foster and are absolutely fine from the start or within a very short space of time purely because experienced fosterers are very good on understanding dog behaviour and body language and so the dogs learn to trust them very quickly. Its not an easy thing to learn and takes lots of practice (and making mistakes too) to be able to help 'aggressive' dogs. Try and remember that every dog is capable of biting, this is a natural and acceptable thing for a dog to do to another dog in certain situations but in a domestic environment obviously not something that should happen to their human family. Everything about a dogs behaviour (and every species on the planet) is designed to promote survival so it is not a good survival tactic to bite for no reason. Dogs bite to protect themselves and as a last resort. Because we as humans dont understand everything about how they interact with each other we often make millions of mistakes in interpreting their behaviour. Even experts (like David Appleby) will tell you they can always learn something new about dog behaviour.
Excellent post Jo!
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I don't know if I'm talking out of turn here, but my understanding is that a dog will always give a warning before it actually bites, the problem is, we often don't recognise the warnings. That is not to say that you have failed your dog in any way, as Jo says, it takes a lot of understanding and experience of dog behaviour and body language to recognise the warnings. I certainly wouldn't trust myself to be able to recognise pre-bite warnings and fortunately have never had to. I know I keep banging on about the book Bones would rain from the sky, but it really helped me to understand at least a little about dog agression. Also, I would imagine David would need to actually SEE an attack before he could begin to analyse what led up to it iyswim.
Anyway, this is just an opinion from a very inexperienced dog owner, so I hope I haven't got it all wrong ph34r ;)
I really do feel for you :luv:
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Sorry to hear this, it must be very upsetting to have experienced this significant set back. Looking at the whole picture, I feel that you should consider re-homing because you have not only you and your husband to think about but also your own future children and relatives. It is not nice to be 'on pins' all the time as I was at the beginning with Molly.
At the end of the day you must think about your own health and gain some comfort knowing that you have really tried so hard to improve behaviour. Only you can make this decision and only when you feel the time is right - good luck with whatever you decide to do but my feelings are that you are now feeling quite desperate in your situation.
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But what have we done to her to make her like this? :huh:
I feel this is all our fault, mine especially as I've spent more time with her :-\
I've heard people say that once a dog has bitten, they will continue to do it as it 'works', but what are we supposed to do if she bites without warning? Does this mean we've got an aggressive dog? And if we've got an aggressive dog now, will she always be classed as an aggressive dog, ie not letting her off the lead, having to muzzel her, etc? And what if, heaven forbid, she bites someone else? It's bad enough when she bites us, but......?
I hope I have not scared you with my previous post. I feel I must redress the balance, Charlie used to bite on a daily basis sometimes several times a day,
he has not bitten for almost a year, although he has given us a few warnings that we have learned to recognise and respect. Charlies tail always drops between his legs and we know then to back off. He never has bitten a stranger :huh:
My other comment is about a muzzle, they can be a very useful short term addition and not something you should dismiss,Lily wearing one may help in te short term.
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Sorry to hear this, it must be very upsetting to have experienced this significant set back. Looking at the whole picture, I feel that you should consider re-homing because you have not only you and your husband to think about but also your own future children and relatives. It is not nice to be 'on pins' all the time as I was at the beginning with Molly.
At the end of the day you must think about your own health and gain some comfort knowing that you have really tried so hard to improve behaviour. Only you can make this decision and only when you feel the time is right - good luck with whatever you decide to do but my feelings are that you are now feeling quite desperate in your situation.
I too sense desperation in your posts at the moment and just want to say if you do decide to re-home (and there is no failure involved in that - sometimes it is the most selfless thing to do for your dog) there are very cocker savvy rescues out there to help ;) :luv:
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No advice I'm afraid, just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you all.
Love Jo & Milly xx
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Thanks once again for all your words of support and advice.
I don't really know how I feel about it all today -- Lily seems back to her 'normal' self, but saying that I haven't tried to put her lead on. She's got her longline on and has had it on all day as she keeps getting up onto the sofa. Most of the time she jumps off as soon as one of us walks into the room, but if she's tired it's a nightmare getting her off, hence the longline. Also, I've been able to fuss her around her collar and the lead today, so that has got to be a step in the right direction :blink:
Hubby spoke to Hannah (vet) again today re her allergies and what we can do about them, and she's said the best course of treatment is injections every week for a few weeks and then once a month of the rest of her life. Hubby said about her biting him yesterday and how we are feeling, and Hannah said that if she is itchy/scratchy this might make her aggressive :-\ I'm not really sure what to think about this as my mum's dog has got to have these injections every month, but he's never aggressive (he's and 12 yr old arthritic, cantankerous retriever who was diagnosed with allergies at 5 and has NEVER been aggressive). All this might explain why she's the way she is, but does it really excuse it? :huh:
I honestly think all this originates from her undershot jaw and the pain that tooth caused her when her adult teeth came through (I've said this all along). But now is her behaviour so ingrained that we won't be able to help her any more? Is re-homing her our best option to give her a fresh start? I know it won't be the easy option, (who can talk about 'the easy option' when your talking about a dog that you love and can't imagine your life without :'() but will it be better for all of us? :'( I just don't know what to think/do anymore, but I do know one of us needs to talk to Lily's breeder tonight to say what has been going on - not a conversation either of us want to have :(
I'm sorry about all these long posts, but I find putting them down on paper, so to speak, helps formulate ideas in my head, and if anyone can give us their point of view, so much the better!
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It's very hard isn't it :-\
All I can do is give you an example: I groom a young Newfoundland bitch who suddenly became very aggressive--I was away and one of the other groomers tried to groom her and she became quite nasty (very intimidating with a Newfie!) She came back for another try; another groomer had her and I heard her yelp and growl when they were putting her in the tub. I told her owner that I believed she was in pain and needed to go to the vet. Turns out she had a urinary tract infection.
She has been treated for the infectionand her behaviour is sooo much better, but now, 2 months later, she still anticipates pain (her flash point is her belly, where her bladder is) but is learning that it does not hurt. This whole thing took around 5-6 months to play out, and she was probably hurting for longer than that, so it is going to take time for her to learn that she doesn't hurt anymore; that the things that used to hurt don't hurt. That will all happen on her schedule, not ours.
Only you and your family can make the decision to whether or not you want to continue to work with her. You've done a super job with her and come a long way; setbacks are to be expected unfortunately; only you can decide if you wish to deal with them. Rehoming may be your best option if you don't feel you can cope. and perhaps there is a more suitable cocker in your future :-*
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Perhaps she's associating the lead with a time from when her tooth was sore??
Hence this is a trigger ??
Morgan has the auto-immune for Pyoderma, and this helps keep any itching and or ittitation down.
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Only you and your family can make the decision to whether or not you want to continue to work with her. You've done a super job with her and come a long way; setbacks are to be expected unfortunately; only you can decide if you wish to deal with them. Rehoming may be your best option if you don't feel you can cope. and perhaps there is a more suitable cocker in your future :-*
I couldn't have put it better. I have just caught up with the last couple of pages and my heart goes out to you. You have tried so hard, perhaps too hard? I can't really explain this very well, but dogs are dogs, your family life is paramount and Lily has to fit in with that. If that sounds harsh I'm sorry but dogs are not "furbabies" even if we call them that, love them though we do, they are not human they are animals. No one could possibly criticise you for not trying; I thought you had found the cause with the tooth so I was saddened to see the new posts.
Please do not see this as failure, it is not. Good luck in what ever decision you make.
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Do you have a local kennel that you trust ? We had very similar issues and found a couple of days breathing space were needed in order to be best decide what to do. It sound to me like you need a rest.
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As you know I have been going through the same thing as you and you feel out of your depth and alone as to try to understand how to read the situation that triggers things off the dog you love is trying to tell you something that they are not happy with but unless you have someone with you 24 7 who knows these things it is hard.
when it affects your health that is awful I know how you feel as I made that dredful decision with Daisy and then comes the feeling of guilt and no matter how much you tried you still feel BAD but as with the outcome with Daisy so far, as said in a previous post they know how to read dogs behavior and I had to think as you must what is best for Lily and for you it is not easy :'( I am thinking of you