Serious Aggression - Desperately need advice - updated

[JennyBee]

Wow it's so amazing to read how she's changed since being on the metacam! Good luck once again for Friday

[bibathediva]

Havnt logged on for a while so just catching up with everyones threads....you sound like such caring owners who are determined not to give up on your little one...well done to you all  hope Friday brings good results for you all 
She is beautiful   

[Mrs K]

Great news on progress. Will be thinking of you on Friday  

[Gordo]

Hmmmm......

Not such a good day today 

When we got up this morning, followed the same routine, but when I went to fuss Lily, after her usual happy greeting, she growled and lunged at me.  Got really upset at this as thought we'd got past this, but obviously not - or maybe I was just expecting too much?  She hadn't long had her Metcam so maybe that hadn't kicked in.  We got past this and she was lovely after (she always goes back to bed when hubby goes off to work so I can get showered etc, and when I came back downstairs she was back to her happy self  )

Hubby actually got her in her car harness today, 2nd attempt as 1st she just wanted to play.  She went into the car no problem and was ver happy to be down the park!  Howeveer, on the way back to the car, she rolled in some fox poo  so when he got her home and tried to lift her into the bath, she started growing so he backed off. So she ended up being washed with the hose outside. Does this mean it's not pain related ?!?

Because of her aggression the vets are sending someone to collect Lily for her op. But, hubby is going to talk to Hannah (Vet) first to discuss whether we have her spayed or not. Had an email from David regarding research into the effect of spaying aggressive dogs, not sure what to think based on this.

The research that has been conducted (Peachy and O’Farrell) is not very robust but it found that bitches that were already aggressive were less likely to be cured of the aggression if they were spayed before the problem was resolved. This not exactly as the paper words it but I know the first author and this what she says should be understood from the paper. One of the things the paper did not look at, if I remember correctly, is the differences in those bitches that are aggressive only in the pre stage of their season (FSH (PMT like) stage which we think can change behaviour up to a month before season itself and during the prolactin stage, i.e when they would be feeing puppies had they been mated (behaviour can be effected if there are signs of milk or not). Both these stages are associated with increased reactivity and control of resources and therefore the potential for aggression is increased. Neutering during the prolacin stage can result in ongoing aggression problems (not applicable here, not yet anyway).

Any ideas/opinions?  She's 6 months old.

Thanks,

Kate x

[bibathediva]

Sorry you feel like you have had a setback and although I'm am in NO way qualified to offer behavioural advise, i dont think its going to be a short road to recovery for you and Lily and you have to deal with each day has it comes and whatever set backs you feel you have put them aside and move on (not easy to do i know )
Personally i think 6 months is too young to be spayed regardless of weather you have aggression issues or not...and it isn't always a cure for aggression  i did notice you said you had asked you vet about aggression and spaying bitches and she said that only one that she knew got worse...did you ask if any had got better    or had they still got the same level of aggression  after the spay  it can also take a fair while for the hormones to settle after a spay so if it is going to have any effect it wont be immediate 
as i said im not really qualified to suggest what you should do but if it was my dog i would hold off on the spay to see if anything else can be found (bloods/poorly tooth) the spay could always be done at a later date but once done it is done and you cant go back 

[PennyB]

My vet always advises them to be spayed after their 1st season anyway and in my dog's case that was when she was a year old.

[JennyBee]

As someone who has chronic pain, I can have off days even with the amount of medication I am on. I suppose it could be the same with Lily? I've no advice re the spaying, I can't imagine how hard you are finding this decision though

[joanne_v]

Hubby actually got her in her car harness today, 2nd attempt as 1st she just wanted to play.  She went into the car no problem and was ver happy to be down the park!  Howeveer, on the way back to the car, she rolled in some fox poo  so when he got her home and tried to lift her into the bath, she started growing so he backed off. So she ended up being washed with the hose outside. Does this mean it's not pain related ?!?

Lifting her could still have caused pain somehow and is quite a 'hands on' thing to do so the combo maybe pushed her into growling. Metacam is not a high strength medication so she could still have felt discomfort.

Personally I wouldnt have her spayed until you see how having the tooth sorted helps.

[spanielcrazy]

You will have good days and not so good days, setbacks are to be expected. And yes, don't expect too much too soon, you still have a way to go yet, so hang in there

Here is strictly my (non-professional) opinion: I live in the US where bitches are routinely spayed at 6 months and usually before their first season. I have never heard of spaying making an aggressive dog worse, but it is not the behavioural remedy that neutering can sometimes be for certain male problems. In other words, spaying an aggressive bitch is not necessarily going to make her better or worse, she's still going to be aggressive no matter spayed or unspayed, if there is no other training or rehabilitating in place. However, spaying will remove the hormonal trigger for certain types of aggression (as mentioned in David's email) and mood swings

Personally, if she were my dog I would go ahead with the spaying as it is going to become an issue sooner or later; the evidence is just not there in favor of waiting for a first heat, and I don't think going through all the possible uproar of a season is helpful at all for a dog with behavioural issues. And the idea of a bitch with issues going through a false pregnency is a nightmare

[Sarah.H]

I was finding it hard to decide whether to get Millie spayed as she has some fear aggression with people and is grumpy with other dogs and I was advised by my trainer that spaying could make her worse. However when I looked into it the opinion of most people is that as bitches are usually done before fully mature the aggressive temperament would have come through anyway despite the fact they were spayed. She is now three and I had her spayed last Thursday as the amount of stray dogs where I live and the risk of pyometra were a problem for me. Obviously much too soon to tell! But having the trauma of being left at the vets and then the pain, effects of GA, restricted exercises and wearing a lampshade have been quite stressful for her. Having to put her through that twice instead of getting it done in one go would be something I would have to think very hard about  .

[Helen]

That sounds very encouraging.  Poor little girl - she was in pain and trying to tell you.    I hope things are on the up for you all now 

Ditto from me, that is really great news and I hope all goes well for her at the vet on Friday.

and from me too - if only we could speak fluent 'dog' 

good luck for today, remember the arnica 

[Joules]

Good luck at the vet today.  Sorry you have had a few setbacks but I guess this is not going to be an instant fix. 

Not sure what I would do re the spaying tbh but it might be difficult dealing with aggression problems as well as a season so I think I would probably go ahead with the op. 

[ElaineH]

Just wanted to wish you good luck for today  Hope all goes well 

[babushka]

I definitely wouldn't spey till after her 1st season. I would want her to go through this rough time and see what she's like several months after and then get her speyed.(only my opinion) Once it's done you can't change it.

[Mudmagnets]

Hope everything goes well at the vets today