Serious Aggression - Desperately need advice - updated

[sharonmansfield]

Hi, Dont know what you decided as regards to the spay but I assume Lilly would have had her tooth out today, I so hope that she has gone on ok and that this has been the cause of some of the problem. I loved the photos she is so cute, I have a little blue roan girl too Jasmine and she too loves the beach so it upsets me to think about little Lily. You are such wonderful owners she is very lucky. I hope that you have time later to post and let us know how she has got on.
Thinking of you, take care
Lots of love Sharon Bella and Jasmine X woof woof

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Not sure what you decided to do but having seen how much change there was in my pup when he lost his sore tooth, I would be tempted to just have the tooth out and see how she goes from there. He was SUCH a different dog after his adult teeth came through

Hannah xx

[Gordo]

Lily has just come back from the vets -- she had tooth out, blood tests and allergy tests done but wasn't spayed.  The e-mail David (behaviourist) had sent us was sent to Hannah (vet) too, and she recommended we didn't have her spayed today.

Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected.  She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him   Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain?

Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow.  Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........

Thanks for all the good wishes -- will come on and say how she's doing later and over the weekend.  Also, thanks for your opinion about getting her spayed - as it happened, the decision was really made for us, but if it had been suggested that she was spayed, I think we would have said no!!!!

[joanne_v]

Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected.  She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him   Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain?

Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow.  Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........

Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected.  She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him   Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain?

Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow.  Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........

Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.

Really great advice Jo.

Lots of luck with her over the next few days, hoping this has done the trick and she will slowly start to improve and learn to be ok with everyone again 

Hannah xxx

[Gordo]

Thanks for that, Joanne - that is what we thought, but it's good to have someone voice what we're thinking!!  

Will keep away from her for the rest of today and start to reintroduce the training again tomorrow.

She's back in her crate now, sound asleep, which is the best place for her.

[SandraD]

I have just sat and read through your entire thread and whilst I don't have any advice for you I just wanted to say we are thinking about you.  Lily is very lucky to have such a caring mum and dad and I wish you every success working things through with your vet and behaviourist.

[SkyeSue]

I have just sat and read through your entire thread and whilst I don't have any advice for you I just wanted to say we are thinking about you.  Lily is very lucky to have such a caring mum and dad and I wish you every success working things through with your vet and behaviourist.

Ditto here 

[sharonmansfield]

Glad she is back and ok, cant say I blame her for being grumpy. The advice is good lets hope you have a happier puppy over the coming days. Thanks for posting, logged on especially to see how she was doing.
Best wishes to you all sharon xx

[Helen]

Since coming home, she is very quiet, to be expected, but she is also grumpy, also to be expected.  She came over to us for a fuss, but when she was standing on her back legs with her front paws on hubby and leaning against him, she did growl and snarl and sort of went for him   Now, I understand that she will be uncomfortable but from the pain killers she's had, she shouldn't be in pain?

Not thinking about it too much today, and not worrying about it -- will see how she is tomorrow.  Can't say I'm particularly looking forwards to the next 48 hours, but hey ho..........

Stick with the no contact rule, its even more vital than ever just now when shes been through an op today. She'll be even more grumpy than usual. The pain will not be her only reason to be grumpy. If you think of it from her point of view she's been in pain and then you have patted her and caused pain so she will associate you touching her with pain even though its not your fault. It will take a while for her behaviour to improve as she needs to have the cycle broken which means no contact apart from the training sessions as advised by David. She will of course go up to you for fuss but at the same time doesnt want to feel pain which is why she'll be acting like jekyll&hyde.

Really great advice Jo.

Lots of luck with her over the next few days, hoping this has done the trick and she will slowly start to improve and learn to be ok with everyone again 

Hannah xxx

another one who think's Jo's advice is spot on - also did she have a GA?  that can really knock them around for a little while after the op 

[SimonandMandy]

Completely agree as well, we have one here who does not react at all well to GA, apart from the sensitivies it gives his tummy, it is the only time he really guards toys etc and ever shown aggression but it does normally pass by the day after.

My fingers are crossed for you all...

[stuffster]

One other thing I would say is be patient with her. As the others have said, the affects of the anaesthetic may last for days if not weeks, so she will be confused and groggy.

Also she may have got into a habit of growling, so it could take a few weeks after the pain goes, before she stops growling (if that is what was causing it) - well, according to the vet who saw Alfie yesterday.

Any new techniques that seem to be working will take TIME to become fool-proof. Our behaviourist suggests trying things for 6-8 weeks consistently before you can tell if they are working, so dont give up if she doesnt seem much improved at first.

[Top Barks]

Any new techniques that seem to be working will take TIME to become fool-proof. Our behaviourist suggests trying things for 6-8 weeks consistently before you can tell if they are working, so dont give up if she doesnt seem much improved at first.

So agree with this, behaviour is rarely modified overnight.

[Gordo]

Update:-

Lily's behaviour has improved so much since last week, and it can't be a coincidence that it has happened since having her tooth out    She was grumpy when she came home on Friday, but Saturday morning she was so happy, but very tired, and by Sunday she was her happy, bright self and we were able to take her out for a walk on her lead, no problems 

I took her out for the 1st time this morning, on my own, and again she was fine.

However, the problem we still have is with her car harness, as this still seems to trigger the snarling, lunging and guarding behaviour    We were supposed to take her back to the vets tonight for her post op check, but couldn't get the harness anywhere near her -- she took it off for a chew, and guarded it whenever we went near her/it. 

We were advised that we needed to use the clicker to help with getting her lead and harness on, ie, when either is on with no growling, click-treat, however, I don't know how we can practice this if we can't get her harness anywhere near her?  Any suggestions will be greatly received!!

[joanne_v]

Can you use a crate in the car instead of a harness or attach her lead to the inside of the car another way? You get leads which have a seatbelt thingy at the end which could greatly help you! Is it the ancol car harness you use with the flappy seatbelt part and metal halfloop at the end? Where do you try and put the harness on her? Indoors or out?